Not seemingly in focus.. Vivitar 400mm 1:5.6

[peter k.]

Not seemingly in focus.. Vivitar 400mm 1:5.6 Auto Telephoto Lens
Friend gave me his old Canon AE-1 with several lenses.. but since I like my Nikon F2 the best.. the only lens that I have used with this camera is the 400mm. I yet to get a photo I like, but have to confess, I'm taking long distance landscape shots, and there could be some haze. So decided to check the camera out.
Decided to test the lens on a heavy duty tripod, attached with cable release, no filter and took a series of eight shots.. Focusing from near to far..
There is quite a difference between the focus of three and four.. On three the focus is on the mail box, on four the tree behind and you can just see the hat on top of the mono pod, leaning against the tree. The mail box looks more in focus.
On fifth shot, the focus was on the mail box with the hat on it.
On sixth shot focus is on pole next to the two trees in center of photo
On the seventh focus is on edge of the back cider block wall opening
On eight focus is on the roof vents.

Am I expecting to much, and this is normal for such a long lens?
No sharpening done on the pictures, except #8 ..scanned at 1600, equals about a 4x6


Background:
Now the lens has some movement, at the junction point of the tripod bracket... its loose.. not allot, but it does wiggle, and also when the ring is tightened fully clockwise on the camera, it also has movement there.
I can't believe this is normal, or is it?

 

[Dan Fromm]

Background:
Now the lens has some movement, at the junction point of the tripod bracket... its loose.. not allot, but it does wiggle, and also when the ring is tightened fully clockwise on the camera, it also has movement there.
I can't believe this is normal, or is it?

This is not normal, it is not correct, and with such a long lens the motion it allows will kill image quality.

What apertures did you shoot at? Which film did you use? Is your F2's ground glass in correctly? Which tripod did you use?

After you've solved your stability problem, do a systematic test. Find a nice brick wall, set up so you're at least 100 feet from it and with the lens oriented at 45 degrees to the wall. Mark the line of best focus on the wall, I'd use masking tape. Take a series of shots at f/5.6, f/8, ... , smallest aperture. After the film is processed, check that the line of best focus is where you thought and see how the sharpness at and around the line of best focus changes with aperture. Do not scan for this last step, use a magnifier. 10x should be enough.

 

[Alan Gales]

I agree with Dan. Something isn't right.

When I first started in photography I bought a dirt cheap Vivitar (not Series 1) 70 to 210 or 80 to 200mm zoom lens from Kmart. It was too long ago to remember exact focal length but I do remember that I got a lot sharper images than you are getting.

 

[Jim Jones]

I went through several 400mm lenses in Nikon F mount before getting a Vivitar 400mm 1:5.6 Auto Telephoto. It is by far the best of the lot, better than my Nikkor 300mm f/4.5. I've never noticed play anywhere in the tripod ring, although the foot of the tripod ring is small enough in area to perhaps permit some play. I never use a quick-detach plate with such a long lens.

The procedure Dan proposes should determine if there is a focus problem. An eyepiece magnifier helps in doing such a test: film can record more detail than the eye can see on the ground glass. If your lens is an excellent performer, expect some drop-off at f/11 and smaller apertures due to diffraction.

 

[Dennis S]

Also sound like you need to tighten the lens mount on the camera. There are 3 screws behind the plate on the from which comes off but watch out for the spring for the stop-down button. Several videos on this procedure helped me and yes the mount was very loose. Good luck. I also have a 400/5.6 Vivitar that is better than some shorter primes.

 

[peter k.]

This is not normal, it is not correct, and with such a long lens the motion it allows will kill image quality.

Yep that was my thinking, as this camera does not have a mirror lock up...
First thing going to do is take a comparison shot on the tripod.. (very stable Bogen use with my LF) and then one on a couple of bean bags.. so nothing can move or vibrate when the mirror does its due..

 

[dynachrome]

Vivitar sold more than one 400mm f/5.6 lens. The older longer lens was made by Tokina and has a serial number starting with 37. There was a later 400/5.6 which had internal focusing and was made by Komine. It has a serial number starting with 28. It also has closer focusing than the Tokina model. I don't remember whether the Komine version was made only as a TX lens (interchangeable mounts) or also as a Fixed Mount model. My standard for comparing these lenses is a 400/5.6 Konica UC Hexanon. The Hexanon is an excellent lens but is hard to find and can be expensive. I consider the Komine version to be sharper than the Tokina version. This brings up a different issue.

Very few focusing screens with a focusing aid like a microprism or a split image (or a combination of the two) are suitable for use with a lens as long as 400mm or as slow as f/5.6. What often happens when these focusing screens are used is that the photographer tries to focus with the plain ground glass portion and that area is not centered on the desired subject. The result is that some area either in front of the subject or behind the subject is in focus but the desired subject is not. The Nikon F2 body which is in the best working condition of the ones I have has a 'K' screen in it now. This is the later standard screen with a split image area surrounded by a microprism collar. Both the split image area and the microprism areas would look black through the finder with a 400/5.6. It's just not suitable for such a lens. The older standard screen was, I think, the A. This had a plain microprism center and is also not suitable. If I had to use the F2 with a 400/5.6 I would switch to the 'E' screen (grid lines) or the 'B' screen (plain matte). How do I use my 400/5.6 UC Hexanon on my Konicas? Two of the Konicas have been modified and have Nikon 'E' screens permanently installed. The last piece of the puzzle is the tripod set-up. Years ago when some long focal length lenses were physically larger one tripod would be attached to the camera and a second one would be attached to the lens. This is not good for any kind of action photography.

 

[peter k.]

Thank you very much... its a Komine .. as it starts with 287.. and has a fix mount on the lens.
I have no idea what screen it has, but I always focus on what I'm shooting, and then adjust the frame for the picture, and have opened it all the way up to 5.6 to do that. So it would nice to get a better screen for it.. if / or the shooter learns how to behave when its shot.

The reference to F2 has been confused.. as I was just stating that I have used this camera very little, as I like my Nikon F2 better than the AE1.

Thanks to Dances_with_clouds.. I tightened up the mount, which was very loose, and slightly tightened up the screws on the lens to see if it would help that wiggle.
Also took a look with the lens off the camera, and it stops down to f22, but not to f32.. as I could not discern any more closure of the lens over f22.
Tomorrow will take some more test shots and develop.

 

[dynachrome]

That clears things up a little. Adjusting your framing after you have focused on the subject will work well in most cases with a wide angle or even a standard lens. With a 400mm lens this technique will not always work well. The AE-1 does not have interchangeable focusing screens. I have an AE-1 Program with a plain matte screen sitting in it now. My preference is for a grid type screen but I do not have one for the AE-1 Program yet. I do have them for my Canon F-1 and F-1n cameras. The focusing screen in the AE-1 is similar to Nikon's 'K' screen. It's a good general purpose screen, just not very good with long and/or slow lenses. With a lens that long I might also lock the mirror up before releasing the shutter. The Canon F-1/F-1n cameras allow me to do that. Photography with long focal length lenses requires good technique and takes a while to learn. I have great respect for photographers who get good photos of birds. Not only do they have to master the use of long lenses. They also need to know a lot about their subjects.

 

[peter k.]

Ok I did some more tests.. and as dyanachrome said, I'm learning.

Photography with long focal length lenses requires good technique and takes a while to learn.

I used a loop, to look directly at the negative, then scanned it and then printed it out.. well of course part of the problem is the limitations of a v700 flat bed.. but more than that.. I took my memory as compared to the print in hand, and went down to the same location and time of day this morning .. and took a look through the lens.. at the 'target' (a sign with writing on it). Much clearer than what the loop showed. I think a big part of it may be the film .. Arista 400 shot at 400.

Think I'll try some Tri-x next and see if that helps...
So still a question... have to use a tripod with this lens.. any suggestions on the 'best' film to shoot with this?

 

[Dennis S]

Thanks dyanachrome. I guess mine is also a Komine as well with a 280 # on it. What is also nice about it is the hood as I am always using it with a lot of light. Don't have any of my favourite shots from it as my computer did the blue screen and they are on an external HDD. Soon very soon. Once you learn to use they a a great bit of kit for summers.

 

[David Lyga]

I offer the following suggestion:

Take the same picture three ways with the camera securely tethered on a tripod (to avoid any possibility of camera shake). Take the first picture at EXACTLY the point when the image is in focus in the VF. Then take a picture with the lens slightly closer than 'in focus' and then take a picture with the lens slightly further than 'in focus'.

Reason? If that mirror is off its exact angle by even one degree, you will find that there is a difference between what the VF 'tells' you is in focus and the 'actual' focus (film plane focus). There are provisions for correcting this angle, depending upon the camera and model. Some, thankfully, have a simple set screw that the bottom of the front of the mirror rests upon, like Fuji ST series and Russian Zenit. Others have a simple metal prong. Still others have a rather elaborate setting device accessed internally. But if the mirror angle is off, you will have this discrepancy.

Perhaps an even better approach would be to photograph a 'picket fence' (or smaller, flat object) at a 45 degree angle. If you focus upon the precise center (mark it well) at maximum aperture (to prevent depth of field) you will be able to determine whether your VF focus and 'actual' focus are congruent.

Rule of thumb:

If 'actual' (film plane) focus is in front of 'apparent' (VF) image, LOWER THE MIRROR.

If 'actual' (film plane) focus is behind 'apparent' (VF) image, RAISE THE MIRROR.

Your 400mm lens offers little depth of field and this could be the reason that you think that it might be inferior. Perhaps it simply is not focused accurately, even if you think that it is. - David Lyga

 

[peter k.]

Well, its funny as 'ell... you learn to develop shooting 4x5, then you get back to some 35mm cause it was spring, and you haven't shot any 35 in about two years, and decide to take another look at this darn 400mm lens that you can't get any pictures out of.
Well.. lame duck shooter gets educated.
In 4x5 one doesn't need the resolution when one cannot print beyond 13" wide on ones printer.. but 35mm is another story. Film that works fine for 4x5, does not for 35mm .. ya dummy. Didn't think of that until the last post, now its proven.
Shot 6 shots this morning with Tri-x.. oh my.. nothing wrong with lens.. it was the film and the da, who was shooting it.
Gonna put an order in for some 400 Illford and some Fuji Neopan Acros 100 ISO and try it and see what I like best with this lens.
Be interesting to see what the Acros does.. will have to learn its development.