Noob seeks advice: Pentax 645 vs. Mamiya 645 vs Bronica

cuthbert · Oct 14, 2015

GarageBoy said:
You may not like it, but that method is way less clunky than other MF camera meter prisms-

On earlier hasselblad finders, you metered with the knobs on the prism, and then had to transfer the readings to your lens separately

Yes I'm aware of that, that's the reason why I consider them very "static" cameras not worthy to be taken too seriously, however another of the triad is incoming:

I'm looking forward to receiving it.

Sirius Glass · Oct 14, 2015

cuthbert said:
Yes I'm aware of that, that's the reason why I consider them very "static" cameras not worthy to be taken too seriously, however another of the triad is incoming:

I'm looking forward to receiving it.

I do not understand the "static" comment considering most of the time the light meter is used once and then many photographs can be taken before the lens needs to be reset. Especially if one uses the EV system.

Roger Cole · Oct 14, 2015

35mm thinking.

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cuthbert · Oct 15, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
I do not understand the "static" comment considering most of the time the light meter is used once and then many photographs can be taken before the lens needs to be reset. Especially if one uses the EV system.

Roger Cole said:
35mm thinking.

QUOTE]

Yes that's the answer, and your reply is very "static" thinking as almost everytime I take a pic I need to change aperture and/or shutter speed because of different targets with different lightning conditions, this is especially true for street photography when sometimes you just have one second or two to shoot something valuable and then the subject is gone or composition is not optimal.

And yes, these comments prove my point: Hasselblads and their owners are slow shooters.

Roger Cole · Oct 15, 2015

I don't have a Hasselblad.

But I've shot a fair amount on the street and other places by just keeping a manual camera set for prevailing light. You simply do not have to meter again for every shot but experience with 35mm (well SLRs with TTL meters anyway) that makes that a kind of default will tend to instill that misconception.

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mweintraub · Oct 15, 2015

Roger Cole said:
I don't have a Hasselblad.

But I've shot a fair amount on the street and other places by just keeping a manual camera set for prevailing light. You simply do not have to meter again for every shot but experience with 35mm (well SLRs with TTL meters anyway) that makes that a kind of default will tend to instill that misconception.

Especially with the film latitudes.

Roger Cole · Oct 15, 2015

I also usually have a pretty good idea after a couple of meter readings what the shadows on that street are like versus out of them and often enough just change exposure a bit by guesstimate and shoot. Working with a TLR and hand held meter for a while really helps this. The non-TTL meter in my Yashicamat 124 actually works surprisingly well, but I almost never use it, relying on my Luna Pro SBC when shooting with that camera.

Sirius Glass · Oct 15, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
I do not understand the "static" comment considering most of the time the light meter is used once and then many photographs can be taken before the lens needs to be reset. Especially if one uses the EV system.

cuthbert said:
Roger Cole said:

35mm thinking.

Click to expand...

Yes that's the answer, and your reply is very "static" thinking as almost everytime I take a pic I need to change aperture and/or shutter speed because of different targets with different lightning conditions, this is especially true for street photography when sometimes you just have one second or two to shoot something valuable and then the subject is gone or composition is not optimal.

And yes, these comments prove my point: Hasselblads and their owners are slow shooters.

Roger Cole said:
I don't have a Hasselblad.

But I've shot a fair amount on the street and other places by just keeping a manual camera set for prevailing light. You simply do not have to meter again for every shot but experience with 35mm (well SLRs with TTL meters anyway) that makes that a kind of default will tend to instill that misconception.

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I do not have to keep resetting the camera when I do street photography and additionally the film latitude aids in not needing to keep resetting the exposure. I find that Hasselblad with the PME works just as quickly as my Nikon N-75 and Nikon F-100. What does need a resetting is you attitude, dude.

Roger Cole · Oct 15, 2015

Yep. I can shoot just as fast with my M645Pro as with my LX or MX.

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lxdude · Oct 15, 2015

cuthbert said:
Yes I'm aware of that, that's the reason why I consider them very "static" cameras not worthy to be taken too seriously,

So is any camera without a meter not to be taken seriously? Like say, a Hasselbad with waist level finder, or any view camera?

Roger Cole · Oct 15, 2015

lxdude said:
So is any camera without a meter not to be taken seriously? Like say, a Hasselbad with waist level finder, or any view camera?

Sure they're serious they're just "static." Keep up!

I'd agree about a view camera, but not, say, a press camera with proper and working rangefinder etc.

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Sirius Glass · Oct 15, 2015

Methinks the dude calls cameras static because they take still photographs, not movies.

Sirius Glass · Oct 15, 2015

cuthbert said:
Yes that's the answer, and your reply is very "static" thinking as almost everytime ...

Methinks the dude calls cameras static because they take still photographs, not movies.

cuthbert · Oct 16, 2015

lxdude said:
So is any camera without a meter not to be taken seriously? Like say, a Hasselbad with waist level finder, or any view camera?

I shoot all my leicas (besides the M5) and my soviet rangefinders meterless BUT just B&W and I take a lot of care setting the aperture.

I also like to shoot wide open and with a lot of DOF where needed, so I also change very often shutter speed. When possible I also change lenses often.

Sirius Glass said:
Methinks the dude calls cameras static because they take still photographs, not movies.

static is of course in the sense you need more time at setting, checking and shooting, or you shoot static objects (for instance landscape with a tripod), you can shoot fast without lightmeter but you have to be very familiar with your camera and how the film you're using behaves.

...but for shooting fast with slide film the best solution is always a pro SLR with aperture priority and motordrive/winder.

flavio81 · Oct 16, 2015

cuthbert said:
Roger Cole said:

35mm thinking.

QUOTE]

Yes that's the answer, and your reply is very "static" thinking as almost everytime I take a pic I need to change aperture and/or shutter speed because of different targets with different lightning conditions, this is especially true for street photography when sometimes you just have one second or two to shoot something valuable and then the subject is gone or composition is not optimal.

And yes, these comments prove my point: Hasselblads and their owners are slow shooters.

Click to expand...

Cuthbert... I also do street shooting and not only I don't need quick metering: Moost often I go street shooting without a meter.

Edit: Saw your last comment. I agree that with slide film it's not easy at all.

Sirius Glass · Oct 16, 2015

cuthbert said:
...but for shooting fast with slide film the best solution is always a pro SLR with aperture priority and motordrive/winder.

Only if you are spraying photographs like one relieves oneself in the bushes. Even then one does not need to take light readings between shots.

mweintraub · Oct 16, 2015

Can we agree that not everyone shots the same way?

Sirius Glass · Oct 16, 2015

mweintraub said:
Can we agree that not everyone shots the same way?

Ok, I can be humble and agree that not everyone shoots the way I do because they are doing it wrong.

flavio81 · Oct 16, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
Ok, I can be humble and agree that not everyone shoots the way I do because they are doing it wrong.

I agree with you. We've reached a consensus!

Alan Gales · Oct 16, 2015

mweintraub said:
Can we agree that not everyone shots the same way?

Very true.

Also a lot of it depends upon what you are used to doing. I shot 35mm for many years using an in camera, bottom, center reading reflective meter. When I bought a Pentax Spotmeter it took a little bit to get used to. Now I love it.

cuthbert · Oct 16, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
Only if you are spraying photographs like one relieves oneself in the bushes. Even then one does not need to take light readings between shots.

Let's make an example:

I shot this little guy by accident, I was aiming at something different, then he shoot up in front of me and looked at the camera, I had a Pentax LX with M 85mm f2 and winder (that is useful because the shutter is always cocked), I had one second or two to realise it could have been a good opportunity, not looking ouside the finder I barely had the time to select f2.0 and focus, then I shot.

I assume that you would have been quick enough in two seconds with an Hassemblad to turn the knob twice, select the aperture, light the lightmeter, check the right shutter speed, insert it in the dial, focus and shoot.

mweintraub said:
Can we agree that not everyone shots the same way?

Yup, and even the same person shoots differently time by time, for instance on Monday I was doing landscapes with the Bronica and I had all the time to use a Hasselblad with uncoupled meter. Still I doubt I would have shot the kid in time.

Argenticien · Oct 16, 2015

cuthbert said:
...but for shooting fast with slide film the best solution is always a pro SLR with aperture priority and motordrive/winder.

While respecting diversity of ways to shoot, I would say that a motor winder in medium format seems to offer limited value for its weight, even to a user who wants to like it, since 220 film seems to be approaching extinction. (What are we down to, just two or three emulsions available?) There's not much to motor your way through in a 15- or 16-exposure roll of 6x4.5, let alone in 6x6 or larger. The motor makes more sense in 35mm with 36 exposures.

If someone likes a motor winder because it forms part of a useful grip, that's different; he's really looking for that grip shape, not the motor function as such, and in fact would do better with a similarly shaped grip that hasn't got half a kilo of batteries and drivetrain in it.

--Dave

rbultman · Oct 16, 2015

I use the motor winder on my Mamiya 645 Pro exactly as a grip. I like the right-hand grip with thumb-operated winder available for some MF cameras (Bronica?) I'd like that for my M, not the static LH grip.

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Roger Cole · Oct 16, 2015

Argenticien said:
While respecting diversity of ways to shoot, I would say that a motor winder in medium format seems to offer limited value for its weight, even to a user who wants to like it, since 220 film seems to be approaching extinction. (What are we down to, just two or three emulsions available?) There's not much to motor your way through in a 15- or 16-exposure roll of 6x4.5, let alone in 6x6 or larger. The motor makes more sense in 35mm with 36 exposures.

If someone likes a motor winder because it forms part of a useful grip, that's different; he's really looking for that grip shape, not the motor function as such, and in fact would do better with a similarly shaped grip that hasn't got half a kilo of batteries and drivetrain in it.

--Dave

rbultman said:
I use the motor winder on my Mamiya 645 Pro exactly as a grip. I like the right-hand grip with thumb-operated winder available for some MF cameras (Bronica?) I'd like that for my M, not the static LH grip.

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Exactly so as far as the grip. I've had the battery in my 645Pro winder expire and used it without the winder. It just handles much, much better with the winder, though it does add some weight and bulk.

As far as value for shooting, I have never used a winder to "motor through" an entire roll. I use it to take two or three quick shots. Even with my thumb wind 35mms which can be pretty fast it's almost impossible to wind without taking the camera from your eye. For that the winder excels.

cuthbert · Oct 16, 2015

Argenticien said:
While respecting diversity of ways to shoot, I would say that a motor winder in medium format seems to offer limited value for its weight, even to a user who wants to like it, since 220 film seems to be approaching extinction. --Dave

That I agree, I was talking about 35mm, for medium format I think motor winders are too heavy, that's the reason why I prefer the manual winder of the Bronica (and the Mamiya 645E), a MF SLR is big enough by itself but a grip is useful if you use a pentaprism.

Oh, I've a 220 back for the Bronica, how many films are available? It appears there is still Portra and Fuji Provia, but anything else? I would like to use it because 120mm only gives you 15 shots and loading takes some time.

Noob seeks advice: Pentax 645 vs. Mamiya 645 vs Bronica

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