non-rapid fixers, and bulk sodium thiosulfate

[BetterSense]

My local store is out of business so I can no longer buy 5L jugs of Ilford Hypam. I don't like the idea of mail ordering liquid fixer. I was thinking of buying bulk sodium thiosulfate and mixing my own fixer. Can I just dissolve Sodium Thiosulfate in water, or do I need to add something else like Sodium Sulfite? Should I make a stock solution, or does one-shot mixing work pretty well? How much slower/longer does plain fixer take compared to rapid fixer? I shoot a lot of TMAX, but I use 2-bath fixing.

Does anyone know where to get cheap Sodium Thiosulfate? I know you can get it for pools, but I haven't found it much less than $5 per pound, which is about what the Formulary sells it for.

 

[ann]

i have used if often, especially for alternative process that call for a weak fixer ratio.

it dissolve easily in water and for various strengths i have added other chemicals. I always mix before use, or at least the same day. I would suggest you use the old fashion film clip for times, but it will be longer than rapid fixers.

to bad your not in my area as i just listed a 20lb bucket

 

[Mahler_one]

Another excellent source for Hypo ( in the form of Prismatic Rice Crystals ) is Mike Jacobson ( sp?) at Art Craft Chemicals. Mike can also guide you as to the correct measurements. For Lodima and Azo papers, Sodium Sulfite goes into the first fixer, not the second. More instructions on MichaelandPaula.com. As you might know, Michael Smith is a well known photographer who uses Azo ( Lodima ) paper and Amidol. Lots of great information at his site. Mix the crystals in water at 90F or above-I go higher-because the solution will cool as the crystals are added.

By the way, I have no problem ordering Ilford Hypam or Rapid Fix in 5 L via the internet. The materials are certainly very convenient to use. I use either for my film and for my standard printing papers. I reserve Hypo for the Azo papers. Your local camera store probably received the Hypam via the mail, UPS, or FedEx. So, instead of going to the camera store, the fixer comes directly to you. What's the difference?

Let us know how you make out, and the very best of luck.

Ed

 

[Richard Wasserman]

Another source for bulk chemicals is The Chemistry Store– http://www.chemistrystore.com/cart.cgi?group=88696&child=88788

 

[Mahler_one]

Hi Ann: Fair price for the Hypo Ann...too bad I am just a bit too far from you...

Are you sure that you have to mix the Hypo on the same day that you plan to use it? Others mix the Hypo in bulk amounts, and use it over a variable time period. I would agree that adding the sodium sulfite in the first fixer should be done just before using the solution, but I have no scientific "proof" that such is necessary.

 

[BetterSense]

I kinda figured that maybe buying bulk hypo would be cheaper. I only use regular and TMAX black and white film, and print on RC paper. I have no plans to use fiber base or fancy azo paper. I need to know if you have to mix other ingredients with the Sodium Thiosulfate in order to make a fixer, because I need to calculate that in.

I don't have any ideological opposition to ordering 5L of fixer, I'm just looking to minimize costs, and I assumed shipping costs would be high on liquid fixer. Perhaps with the store's markup gone, it would work out to be only slightly more expensive than buying it from the store.

 

[Mahler_one]

Another source for bulk chemicals is The Chemistry Store– http://www.chemistrystore.com/cart.cgi?group=88696&child=88788

Thanks Richard. Quite inexpensive vs. other sources. I wonder if the crystals are "the same".

 

[Anon Ymous]

A plain sodium thiosulfate solution will work, but don't expect it to last; it should be used within a day or so. So, you'll need to add a preservative. It could be sodium sulfite, or metabisulfite, or both. BTW, in case you really want to mix your own and can't find any ammonium thiosulfate, adding ammonium chloride will turn a "slow" fixer to a rapid one. Check the articles section for Ole's fixer.

 

[BetterSense]

I was looking at The Chemistry Store. That's where I bought my bucket of Sodium Sulfite from; they had the best price.

I used to pay $33 for 5L of Hypam from my local store; Freestyle wants $45 shipped for it. For about that much, I can buy a 20lb bucket of Sodium Thiosulfate from The Chemistry Store. Then the question becomes, which would last longer/be cheaper...5L of Hypam or 20lb of Sodium Thiosulfate? Does anyone know the recipe for mixing up plain fixer and the ballpark capacity?

 

[ann]

yes i am sure i mix it the same day for use, and basically use it on a limited number of prints, but again this is for alternative processes , not silver gelatin.

as an aside i order Ilford's rapid fixer from Calumet all the time, the shipping is reasonable and it takes about 2 days as it comes from chicago to atlanta.


here is a formula for plain hyp0
sodium thiosulfate 16oz to 64oz water (125 degrees)

use fresh and undiluted, use an acid stop bath

here is one for a fixer that can be saved and reused

64oz water (125degrees)
sodium thiosulfate 16oz
sodium bisulfite 1 1/2 oz

this is from the darkroom cookbook by Ancehell

 

[CBG]

You may want to double check whether you need a rapid fix for TMAX films. I gather they like industrial strength fixation and that they exhaust fix more rapidly than other films. One of the best buys for fix is the big cubes of Flexicolor (C-41) Fixer. It works just fine for BW, is a rapid fix and is priced very competitively. Even with shipping it may suit you. I believe the big cube make 25 gallons of fix. I just bought a cube. It came out under three bucks a gallon delivered, and diluted.

 

[Mahler_one]

Two important points:

1. Please note my mistake above, now corrected. One adds Sodium BISULFITE to the first fixer, not Sodium Sulfite.

2. Regarding the longevity of the premixed Hypo made from the rice crystals: I had a long discussion with Richard at Michael Smith's workshop. Richard is a skilled photographer in his own right, has printed thousands of images, and has lots of experience in using Hypo. The crux of the matter is that premixed Hypo from the crystals lasts for weeks, if not for months, as long as the Sodium Bisulfite is NOT added to the stock solution. Once added, the Hypo should be used quickly. Obviously, many of us have our own way(s) of working. If one's methods work well, no reason to change.

I don't know why there is disagreement with what the very accomplished and respected Mr. Anchell has written. Not for me to reason why!

 

[srs5694]

I don't have any ideological opposition to ordering 5L of fixer, I'm just looking to minimize costs, and I assumed shipping costs would be high on liquid fixer.

I did some serious cost comparisons a while back, and I found that fixers based on sodium thiosulfate were more expensive than those based on ammonium thiosulfate, at least based on the prices I discovered. My spreadsheet shows 907g (2 pounds) of sodium thiosulfate went for $3.94 from The Chemistry Store, with shipping roughly doubling that price. Plain fixer uses 240g of this per liter, for a cost of about $2.00 per liter. Ammonium thiosulfate, OTOH, cost $14.00 for 3785 ml (1 gallon) from Art Craft, plus $5.21 for shipping. (I live closer to AC than to TCS, so shipping works out in favor of ammonium thiosulfate for me.) I don't have a rapid equivalent to plain fixer, but the TF-3 formula using ammonium thiosulfate plus some other ingredients worked out to $0.91 per liter (working strength), or roughly half what the plain sodium thiosulfate fixer costs. Kodak Flexicolor fixer, according to my spreadsheet, came in at $1.39 per liter of working-strength fixer.

That said, these figures are a bit elderly. I see that TCS's price for sodium thiosulfate has gone up to $5.00 for 2 pounds, and Art Craft now charges $16.95 for a gallon of ammonium thiosulfate. Shipping charges have probably risen, too. The comparison in my spreadsheet may be a bit unfair because the order quantity for the sodium thiosulfate was smaller; however, even adjusting the price based on a 20-pound order of sodium thiosulfate would be unlikely to make sodium thiosulfate fixer less expensive than ammonium thiosulfate fixer unless you could get it locally (removing the shipping charges for one but not the other) at TCS-like prices.

Given the inconvenience of longer fixing times, particularly for paper, I don't see any reason to favor sodium thiosulfate fixers. Ammonium thiosulfate fixers are less expensive and faster. TF-3 smells strongly of ammonium, but other formulas don't smell as much. (Flexicolor fixer, for example, has a pretty mild odor.)

 

[Mahler_one]

I would agree completely.

I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid Fix for film AND "regular" silver paper used for enlarging. However, I have concentrated lately on trying to become familiar with contact printing 8x10 negative on Azo/Lodima paper using Amidol. As such, I am following the suggestions of Michael and Paula who are perhaps the most experienced photographers working today in the use of such materials. Michael has used sodium thiosulfate for years. Having said so, using Ilford Rapid Fix would certainly be much more convenient. Rapid Fix is great on my 8x10 film, and has worked perfectly on fiber based paper. Frankly, I would prefer changing back to ammonium thiosulfate! The convenience of the Ilford and Kodak products ( and others ) is undeniable, and the cost vs. sodium thiosulfate is not significantly different. In addition, paper washing time is reduced with the ammonium product-and one can follow the well researched and accepted Ilford archival processing steps without worry.

 

[Anscojohn]

I was looking at The Chemistry Store. That's where I bought my bucket of Sodium Sulfite from; they had the best price.

I used to pay $33 for 5L of Hypam from my local store; Freestyle wants $45 shipped for it. For about that much, I can buy a 20lb bucket of Sodium Thiosulfate from The Chemistry Store. Then the question becomes, which would last longer/be cheaper...5L of Hypam or 20lb of Sodium Thiosulfate? Does anyone know the recipe for mixing up plain fixer and the ballpark capacity?

****************
I have used Kodak fixer F-24 for years. I am very careful when the film is wet because F-24 has no hardener. It is just a 24% solution of sodium thio, 1% sodium sulfite as a preservative, and 2.5% sodium bisulite as an acidulater.

Fix film "for twice the time it takes to clear." Nothing could be simpler.

Years ago I bought a 50 pound drum of thio. It is almost gone.

 

[dancqu]

Simpler Yet

I have used Kodak fixer F-24 for years. I am very careful
when the film is wet because F-24 has no hardener. It is
just a 24% solution of sodium thio, 1% sodium sulfite
as a preservative, and 2.5% sodium bisulite as an
acidulater.

Fix film "for twice the time it takes to clear."
Nothing could be simpler.

Years ago I bought a 50 pound drum of thio.
It is almost gone.

It does last and last and .... I think of it as being a dry
concentrate.

No need for additives film or paper. Planning ahead I know
how much fix is needed. At processing time that amount
of fresh sodium thiosulfate fix is prepared. It can be
considered a ph neutral fix.

My fresh fix is used VERY dilute one-shot. The one-shot
use of photo chemistry goes very nicely with the the
single tray processing method I employ. Dan

 

[clayne]

My fresh fix is used VERY dilute one-shot. The one-shot use of photo chemistry goes very nicely with the the single tray processing method I employ. Dan

But becomes an utter hassle with anyone doing normal darkroom printing processes.

If I had to remix fixer for every single print I used I wouldn't even bother - let alone the repouring of each chemical. Talk about creativity killer.

 

[dancqu]

Not the Way

If I had to remix fixer for every single print I used I wouldn't
even bother - let alone the repouring of each chemical.

A fixer is prepared for the session. The VERY dilute developer
and fixer are down the drain after one or a few at same
time prints have been processed.

Single tray processing makes a small darkroom much
roomier. Dan

 

[David Brown]

My local store is out of business ...

What local store is that?

 

[BetterSense]

Film Depot on 75 near Arapaho. She's been selling stuff for really cheap, and not restocking anything. Te store is practically empty now. I asked her about it and she says she's 'moving' but won't ever say where she's moving to. I don't think the store will be around much longer.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Agfa Rapid fixer 304

The fixing speed of sodium thiosulfate can be increased by the addition of ammonium ions to the bath.

water (50 deg C) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 600 ml
sodium thiosulfate, pentahydrate . . . . . . . 200 g
ammonium chloride . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 50 g
potassium metabisulfite . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 g
water to make . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 l

Dissolve the hypo in the warm water Dissolve the remaining chemicals in a small amount of water and slowly add with constant stirring to the hypo.

Use fulf strength.