Noblex 135 U: inevitable problem ?

[Cor]

Dear all,

After years of using Horizon 202 and trying to life with it's temperament: sometimes banding, often problems with film transport, up to tearing away the sprocket holes, I am tempted to switch to a Noblex 135 U plus Panolux.

I have lead on that set, but I got a bit worried over on the following statement, found on APUG (and elsewhere: Dead Link Removed) by Bob Watkins Precision Camera Works:

"As for the Noblex 135U, (please post this response on APUG - it saves us a
lot of future emails ) this is actually a fairly common problem and we
should be able to rectify it with a CLA (Clean, Lubricate and Adjust).

The labor for the CLA runs $325.00 + shipping (and includes minor parts).
(it will almost certainly need drive wheels (worst case scenario) and there
are 2 in your camera one is $68.00 and the other is $88.00 these are not
included in the CLA)"

It seems that the rubbery plastic gears deteriorate with time.

Above set it offered by somebody who bought the set about 7 years ago and it saw little use (according to the seller..)

So is it inevitable that ALL Noblex 135 U camera's develop these problems ?

Spending quite some money on said set, and than sending it off to the USA (I am in The Netherlands) is well less appealing..

Opinions and experiences appreciated!

Best,

Cor

 

[AgX]

What are "rubbery plastic gears"?
The Noblex is a quite recent camera. It is very hard for me to imagine plastic deterioration. (I know of incompatibiltily between certain plastic and certain grease, but do not expect such here.)

But I would bot have expected banding with the Horizon either...

 

[gone]

Before you spend that kind of money, I recommend that you look at the reviews of the Horizon Perfekt here, and especially the reviewer who gave it three stars. He had owned a Noblex previous to the Perfekt, and has some interesting things to say about it. I have no experience w/ either camera, but a Holga Wide Panoramic camera would do fine for me, judging from the sample photos I've seen.

http://www.amazon.com/Lomography-Ho...l_reviews&filterByStar=five_star&pageNumber=1

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I just had that work done on my Noblex 150 (medium format), and yes, it's a standard problem, and no, it's not cheap to fix. Siggi Rhode of Noblex, Canada says he's found a better solution. I got the camera back, and for the first few rolls, it seems fine, but time will tell as to how long the new drive wheels will last.

Several years ago, I stopped into Linhof Studio in London and noticed that they carried Noblex, while I was considering purchasing one, or maybe it was shortly after I'd gotten mine, and they said that they thought the 135 models came in more often for service than the medium format versions, but I suspect that the 135 versions may just get more rough handling, because they're more handholdable and easy to carry around on a strap.

 

[Cor]

I just had that work done on my Noblex 150 (medium format), and yes, it's a standard problem, and no, it's not cheap to fix. Siggi Rhode of Noblex, Canada says he's found a better solution. I got the camera back, and for the first few rolls, it seems fine, but time will tell as to how long the new drive wheels will last.

Several years ago, I stopped into Linhof Studio in London and noticed that they carried Noblex, while I was considering purchasing one, or maybe it was shortly after I'd gotten mine, and they said that they thought the 135 models came in more often for service than the medium format versions, but I suspect that the 135 versions may just get more rough handling, because they're more handholdable and easy to carry around on a strap.

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

Further research seems to indicate problems with the gears are to be expected, I think I'll shy away from this deal, and try to investigate why my Horizon 202 is tearing the sprocket holes apart. If everything works OK I did obtain quite a few really nice and sharp negatives with my 202, and I like it's compactness and not depending on batteries to run.

Best,

Cor

 

[gorbas]

Hi Cor,
I'm Horizont user since 1985. Way back, before good overhaul by German trained, local camera tech here in Vancouver, my old Horizont (metal one, 1968 vintage) was very nasty with films. But after that it runs nicely. With models 202 i never had any problems. Be careful I noticed that depending of the film type it can go smoother or harder during winding and rewinding. My main film for the last 18 or so years was Agfa APX100, no problem with it, but every time I loaded Tri-X or Agfa APX400 it was harder to move film inside. Last summer i switched to Arista Premium 100 (Plus-X) and in 202 it was way harder than with APX100, but no tearing. I had to wind film quite slowly and deal with rewind spindle all the time. Also I noticed lot more dust from emulsion after each roll inside the camera. On the last summer trip when I run out of Arista film switched to FP4+ and it was touch easier to deal with.
So, after thousands of rolls of films I put thru my Horizonts I can tell you that they can be film picky. Also it helps if you keep loose rewinding spindle and remaining of the film in cassette. Touch of lubricant on the spindle also helps. What kind of film are you using?

 

[jrb]

+1 to keep loosening off the film spool when advancing the film and lubricating the spindle. I have had the same film transport problems with a newly purchased Horizon S3 Pro with TMax 400. It is slowly getting better as more film is put through it. An older S3 advances film much easier and never had this problem. Luck of the draw?

 

[Cor]

Thanks for the feedback on the Horizon, very timely! Since I declined the nice offer to buy the Noblex, I turned my attention to my Horizon again, I am actually quite attached to it, brought on our honey moon trip in 1997 to India, Pakistan, China, Tibet and Nepal..;-).

On film: indeed I switched to Tmax400 from Ilford Delta 400, which was more prone to tearing, recently also the Tmax400 film started to tear as well, so I got tempted by the Noblex. Anyway I carefully cleaned my Horizon (I also have the metal Horizont brick, 1969 vintage, but that shreded my film I recall) and used some sparsely applied silicon lubricant on the cleaned shiny round metal film transport strips. I had some Delta 400 test rolls and in light I could quite effort less wind and expose 22 frames: the higher the frame number the more force the winder needs: because the pick up spool gets thicker perhaps ?

Just returned from a small test trip with a new roll of Delta 400,exposed and I will process it tonight, see if there are no adverse effects of the lubricant.

When you guys talk about a spindle: you mean the rewinding thing, the shaft which attaches to the film roll, used for tightening and rewinding ?

Thanks!

Best,

Cor

 

[jrb]

Yes, when I refer to the spindle I mean the one that reaches into the film canister and is attached to the rewind knob. You also might consider using a 24 rather than a 36 exposure film, which gives me 15 frames. As you state, with fewer frames there is less tension and therefore less tearing of the film.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have Tempe Camera, http://www.tempecamera.biz/REPAIR_DEPARTMENT_s/17.htm, do the service work on my WideLux 7. Unfortunately there is no source for a cracked veiw finder front cover [a common problem, I have been told].

 

[gorbas]

You are both right about amount of film in cassette. My favourite number of exposures is 18 of Horizont frames or around 32 in total (with leader) of normal 24x36. I'm using my own films from bulk loading and it's 99.9% of the time.
Right now I'm using my last rolls of original, factory packed APX100 in 36 exposures and films simply flies thru the 202 camera. On processed Plus X negatives I clearly can see indentation marks left on one side of perforation from the gears. It was very hard to pass frame 15
I'm talking about lubricating spindle (for rewinding and tensioning film) not film rails. It's not good idea to have any kind of oil or grease in the contact with the emulsion. Also it will attach dust to the oily layer and create whole whack of problem down the road.
When you feel to much tension during winding, you stop, fiddle with rewind crank, try again slowly to wind film and simply super slow rewind film back to cassette. It sucks big time when you are stuck with broken film in the camera in the middle of the field. Better and easier to loose a few frames.
Sorry, never had TMY or Delta 400 in my Horizonts, but Delta 3200 and Fuji Neopan 1600 were totally fine, even in original 36ex. lengths.
Please, Don't be discouraged! They are all amazing cameras!

 

[Cor]

Hi Gorbas,

I processed the film last night, still drying but it looks perfect; This was the Delta400 film, which normally would tear, and ran perfectly through the 2002 yesterday. I was indeed worried about greasing the film rails, but the stuff I used is some kind of teflon spray, they label the ingredient as PFTE the same stuff they use in pans to prevent sticking. I applied its sparsely, and it does not feel oily or greasy at all, just very smooth.

No adverse effects on the emulsion it seems, but only enlarging will tell for sure. Right now I am happy that I can go on with my 202 !

Thanks again,

Best,

Cor

 

[gorbas]

Hi Cor, happy to hear that this solution worked for you! As we all know Horizont's were not produced with amazing tolerances and spotless polishing and that film path is fairly long. There are lots of friction along the way. Please post some pictures?
What drives me crazy with all my horizont's bodies: metal one, 202 and S3 is thin, not very sharp line, whitish on positive image that runs around 1mm in the frame, on both long edges of the negative. It's not classical black or white line caused by sharp, particle scratch, but some kind of mechanical indentation or rubbing to emulsion side. Very hard to even out on dark sky both on the silver print or on digital file. Bottom one is easier to hide because of ground texture of the pictures.
Maybe your solution will fix it too??

 

[Cor]

Hi Gorbas,

The problem you describe I do not recognise, I do have the occasional banding mostly caused by the sun interfering, or sometimes a stutter in the constant speed of the drum although by ear it spins nicely. when you mean post some pictures, you mean just some recent ones ?

best,

Cor

 

[jrb]

Cor,
Please let us know your results when you check your negatives by printing. If they look good (no lubricant residue) I think I will try lubricating the rails as well.

 

[gorbas]

hi Cor, This is very small detail of 75cm or 30" long print:

This one is taken with first version Horizon

 

[Cor]

Ok guys,

I'll try to squeeze in a printing session this week (I made contact prints last night, these look good), I'll get back, although the test roll after the lubrication is not very exciting image wise, but it's a test roll..

Best,

Cor