No wonder camera manufacturers loved digital photography

[MattKing]

What is this "Phase" you were discussing.?

Even though Bob is Canadian, it isn't one of these:

 

[CMoore]

Exactly right.
The real profit though was made on film and photo-finishing.
Which is why there aren't many camera stores left.

OK...i see. That certainly makes sense.
Good Christ. Every little town use to have a camera store, and they often did some kind of basic printing or offered a darkroom for rent.
All that is gone now.
Just, F'ing Gone.
I am trying to think of another Industry/Trade/Profession that took a hit so hard and so fast......?
Horses/Cars
Props/Jets
Tubes/Transistors
Polyester Ply/Radial Tires
At least all of that took awhile, and the older technology hung on in a bigger way for longer...I Think.?
Maybe the only similarity i can think of is.....
.....Stearn Trains Vs The Diesel Electric.
That transition was fast, brutal and complete.
I THINK i can understand how all those steam guys must have felt. The engineers, firemen, boiler makers and the HUGE Steam Shops that were part and parcel of the steam era. Those locomotives need "Constant" up keep when compared to the D/E. You needed A LOT of guys for steam. Those poor guys must have felt miserable. Can you imagine being obsolete and unnecessary.?
Anyway.......cameras and camera stores. It almost sounds like a funny idea now. Some funny little man standing in his funny little store with no customers.
The efficiency of technology might be The Great Undoing of the human spirit.
I'll stop now.
Sorry

 

[lantau]

What is this "Phase" you were discussing.?

Phase One is a manufacturer of medium format cameras. I believe they started with digital backs. They also make a powerful alternative to Lightroom, the digital wet darkroom.

 

[CMoore]

Phase One is a manufacturer of medium format cameras. I believe they started with digital backs. They also make a powerful alternative to Lightroom, the digital wet darkroom.

10-4
Thank You

 

[Dali]

Can you imagine being obsolete and unnecessary.?

This might happen soon on a much bigger scale with AI... AI or how man made man obsolete.

 

[blockend]

This might happen soon on a much bigger scale with AI... AI or how man made man obsolete.

AI is Sci-Fi. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[blockend]

Buying a new camera or lens has always been easier than making a great photograph. That was the case 50 years ago, and it's still true. If only I had a Summicron, if only medium format, if only digital, if only 10 mp, if only full frame and 50mp. All nice. All completely irrelevant to the original problem. Most people have given up on photography (the creation of compelling pictures) and make do with spotting micro contrast or staring at bokeh balls.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

....- such as full frame - expensive and elite, even now when digital imaging is well into a state of maturity and they could if they wished deliver it much cheaper.

Sorry to interrupt your act of wisdom

BH has new, in the box, with manufacturer warranty FF camera for 898 USD, which will works almost with any lens manufactured since Leica made their first FF lens.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1008114-REG/sony_ilce7_b_a7_mirrorless_digital_camera.html

This is cheaper than unlocked iPhone for 899 USD.

https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-iphone/iphone-7

 

[rrusso]

Buying a new camera or lens has always been easier than making a great photograph. That was the case 50 years ago, and it's still true. If only I had a Summicron, if only medium format, if only digital, if only 10 mp, if only full frame and 50mp. All nice. All completely irrelevant to the original problem. Most people have given up on photography (the creation of compelling pictures) and make do with spotting micro contrast or staring at bokeh balls.

You forgot:

- "But is it sharp wide-open?"
- "How much CA does it have?"
- "How much distortion?"
- "How much vignetting?"

"Yep, that lens just won't do it for me. Instead, I think I'll drop ~3K on this brand new, 23 element heavy as hell light speed af behemoth. My photos will be flat as hell, but they'll be "tack sharp" corner to corner, and with no CA".

 

[John Koehrer]

Holy Christ.....is this true.? (after all, you ARE Canadian)

I would have thought the camera store did OK on something like the AE-1...but i guess not.?
So it was the lens, lens cap, haze filter, bag, film ,etc etc.....are you saying that is where the "real" mark-up was for your average camera store.?
Thank You

In the US too. Camera may have been a loss leader The AE1's sold like popcorn. "Please buy anything so we can make a buck or two" A vivitar filter for the Canon sold for ~ $10. we' pay 2 or 3 for it
and get an additional discount off the wholesale if the bill was paid in 30 days.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

It is their business, as long as people keep buying ther cameras. I dont see anyone pushing anything though. As film product sales declined and most of the pro's went to digital world, there was no reason to produce more film cameras. Most consumers fell in love with new, digital cameras as they appeared to be more easy to get pictures with. So, it was rather people's choice that we do not have (many) film cameras produced anymore.

I agree.

 

[chip j]

Top-end film cameras, like top-end turntables, had Class & Elegance, words not heard in the digital domain.

 

[OzJohn]

OK...i see. That certainly makes sense.
Good Christ. Every little town use to have a camera store, and they often did some kind of basic printing or offered a darkroom for rent.
All that is gone now.
Just, F'ing Gone.
I am trying to think of another Industry/Trade/Profession that took a hit so hard and so fast......?
/QUOTE]

One of the first first major industries to be decimated by digital technology was the local print shop. It was doomed the day Apple released the Mac computer which roughly coincided with somewhat affordable laser printers but really took hold when Microsoft based their Windows operating system on the Mac GUI. Both events preceded consumer level digital photography by a least a decade.

 

[blockend]

Top-end film cameras, like top-end turntables, had Class & Elegance, words not heard in the digital domain.

Alpa were eye-wateringly expensive and made some of the ugliest cameras ever. Nikon professional cameras with Photomic heads looked like an afterthought. Leica looked fine so long as you didn't veer far from 50mm. Top end cameras like top end turntables bore no connection to the taste of their owners,

 

[MartinCrabtree]

I fail to understand the continuing ignorance of digital photography so pervasive here. It has it's drawbacks as well as assets. Should we all conform and develop outdoors in a horse drawn wagon using toxic chemicals? If ya don't like it don't shoot it. It's that simple.

 

[removed account4]

This is interesting .... I started my film processing business in 1991- just before the digital onslaught.. I was doing very well for about 8 years processing film and making small custom prints for the whole photographic industry.

I remember the pain / anxiety and the feeling of anger I had around 1999 era when I concluded that indeed my whole business model was going to be decimated. I do remember my clients (pro) photographers gleefully jumping on the digital
bandwagon and some even telling me how glad they did not have to go through the process and contact, clip test model of business.
The suppliers like Kodak , Fuji and others I depended upon were either folding, giving up ship, or selling to both sides of the equation.
I saw my small business go from a nice comfortable level to nothing. Many other printers got sucked into this void and did not recover.

Canon and Nikon IMHO were the big initial winners... then came Epson... and now the smart phone dudes....

Lucky for me I was young enough and also had and incredible good friend who basically Paid Me for two years to completely revamp my business and I too joined the digital revolution with Printing (Durst Lambda 76)
Now 24 odd years later I see some of the same pro photographers in their mid to late 60's trying to reinvent themselves as social median , smart phones, easy digital cameras has made everyone a photographer and they are now feeling the pain.

This cycle was quite fast, but I am still amazed that there actually is a high end in camera gear, its not Nikon or Canon, but Phase and I am seeing many young and mid career professionals doing anything they can to buy into this technology and with it
set themselves from the pack.
This is relatively new IMO where across the board we finally have a distinct lineup of quality products... I am making 60 inch x 80 inch murals off the Phase that IMO rival any work I did years ago from 8 x10 negative film.. It is the first time I have
been able to say this...

Whats next... I think you will find Leica with its big sensors and monochrome system become a very cherished camera. I think you will see Phase take a big chunk of the market.. and I do think you will see Canon and Nikon battle it out
with Sony and Samsung.

Each manufacturer will decide where they are best suited , and now I feel since the digital revolution exploded in 2000 there is a very distinct pecking order.

thanks for your insights bob !

 

[jim10219]

Funny thing about digital cameras... Kodak practically invented the technology, and then sat on it for fear of it cutting into their film sales. Then, when other camera makers started releasing digital cameras, Kodak waited too long to get back into the game, and lost out on what could have been a dominant market share for them. In fact, the only reason Kodak and Agfa survive today is because of their footholds in the commercial printing industry. I don't know how much they make off their film sales anymore, but it's not much compared to their printing equipment and software. So really, they have no one to blame but themselves.

In any case, it wasn't so much the digital camera revolution that decimated the camera industry, but the internet revolution. Now every camera store not only has to compete with every other store in town, but every other store in the world! Now, manufacturers not only have to compete with each other, but with their older models on the used market. Just about all of the hobby and specialty markets have been decimated by this. Look at the music industry! Or the print industry! Hell, even the computer industry! How many local computer stores are left? Luckily, they've all bottomed out and begun to stabilize. So if you're still around and making a go at it, you're probably not going anywhere anytime soon. Just don't expect any rapid growth cycles in the near future.

 

[Nodda Duma]

I fail to understand the continuing ignorance of digital photography so pervasive here. It has it's drawbacks as well as assets. Should we all conform and develop outdoors in a horse drawn wagon using toxic chemicals? If ya don't like it don't shoot it. It's that simple.

Not sure how you draw that conclusion on a forum where the specific topic is encouraged to be limited to analog. It's like going to a Rennaissance Festival and concluding that everyone there lives in a thatched cottage. No, it just means everyone here has an interest in analog!

 

[moose10101]

Not sure how you draw that conclusion on a forum where the specific topic is encouraged to be limited to analog.

There is no such limitation in this section of the forums. If there were, this thread would have been deleted days ago.

 

[CMoore]

I fail to understand the continuing ignorance of digital photography so pervasive here. It has it's drawbacks as well as assets. Should we all conform and develop outdoors in a horse drawn wagon using toxic chemicals? If ya don't like it don't shoot it. It's that simple.

Not sure what you mean by the word "Here".
Are you saying this Post or the APUG Forum in general.?
I certainly am ignorant of Digital Photography. I think it is an Amazing and Fabulous development. But i myself have a interest in the Traditional Photography Skills.
In 1975 i would not have recommend that the average Person/Family buy a SLR. They would be better served with a Point and Shoot style of camera.
Today the same people would be much better served by their camera phone or some "basic" digital camera. I would not tell anybody they should by a film camera for their photo needs.
I have not really noticed "A Lot" of digital bashing on APUG, but i am somewhat new here, and i probably tend to read posts that are aimed at teaching people that are just learning.?
I agree with you 100%. Nobody is superior based on what sensor is in their camera.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Funny thing about digital cameras... Kodak practically invented the technology, and then sat on it for fear of it cutting into their film sales. Then, when other camera makers started releasing digital cameras, Kodak waited too long to get back into the game, and lost out on what could have been a dominant market share for them. In fact, the only reason Kodak and Agfa survive today is because of their footholds in the commercial printing industry. I don't know how much they make off their film sales anymore, but it's not much compared to their printing equipment and software. So really, they have no one to blame but themselves.

In any case, it wasn't so much the digital camera revolution that decimated the camera industry, but the internet revolution. Now every camera store not only has to compete with every other store in town, but every other store in the world! Now, manufacturers not only have to compete with each other, but with their older models on the used market. Just about all of the hobby and specialty markets have been decimated by this. Look at the music industry! Or the print industry! Hell, even the computer industry! How many local computer stores are left? Luckily, they've all bottomed out and begun to stabilize. So if you're still around and making a go at it, you're probably not going anywhere anytime soon. Just don't expect any rapid growth cycles in the near future.

It really is amazing that Kodak, basically dropped the ball, in fact incredible.. I think that there was a really bad strain of Management late 90's into 2006 that had their heads up their arses.. How Canon and Nikon , now Leica and other historic camera designers stepped up and turned their operations around is really interesting...
In my small area of business life, I had to take a two year hiatus from business to learn digital and invest to survive, it was not easy and many , many times I felt I should quit and go operate the Zamboni in winter and groom the ball diamond and Umpire in summers.
Kodak led the way with their Premiere system for imaging (early 90's) and since then nothing, absolutely nothing ... I think in years to come this once mighty company will go down in history as losing it 1999... they jumped the shark that year.

 

[CMoore]

It really is amazing that Kodak, basically dropped the ball.......
Kodak led the way with their Premiere system for imaging (early 90's) and since then nothing, absolutely nothing

Kodak was a constant in our years.....like Coca-Cola and Ford Motors.
It is hard to believe that an entire generation has now grown up with no real exposure to Kodak.
That Yellow and Red Logo was a Part Of Our LIVES

 

[michr]

Sorry to interrupt your act of wisdom

BH has new, in the box, with manufacturer warranty FF camera for 898 USD, which will works almost with any lens manufactured since Leica made their first FF lens.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1008114-REG/sony_ilce7_b_a7_mirrorless_digital_camera.html

This is cheaper than unlocked iPhone for 899 USD.

https://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-iphone/iphone-7

That's an amazing price for full-frame. Makes me wish I hadn't sunk so much into Nikon full frame gear. I've become hooked on adapting old lenses to new cameras, and Nikon with its long flange-focal distance is difficult to find interesting and cheap lenses for. Whereas the Sony should adapt almost any full-frame lens.

 

[tonyowen]

AI is Sci-Fi. Ain't gonna happen.

Sorry to be pedantic, but AI 'artificial intelligence' is merely a programming tool/system that enables fast solutions to problems with many and often changing variables. AI follows on from the so-called 'expert systems'. AI is a hyped up misnomer but although the science and computing technology behind it is vast, the consideration that it will replace humans is daft. What it and similar systems will do is to make life easier. Much in the same way that slide rules were quickly replaced by handheld electronic calculators.
AI is certainly science fact, the fiction is in the novels.
regards
Tony

 

[Sirius Glass]

AI is Sci-Fi. Ain't gonna happen.

Not true. I used AI on many successful projects. You need to stick to posting what your really know and not base your posts on what you had for breakfast.