No More Pure Ammonia In Canada

[Andrew O'Neill]

I ran out of it when I was making kallitype fixer. I've used this fixer (25g sodium thiosulfate Anhyrdrous; 50ml ammonia) for many years. No one has it anymore as it's illegal to sell here, according to the store clerk. Oh well.... I mixed up one that I used to use (Sandy King's) and it'll do. I just appreciated the convenience of the ammonia based rapid fix, and its one minute fixing time. What are others using to fix their kallitypes?

 

[MattKing]

Would this work:
https://www.homehardware.ca/en/900ml-ammonia-all-purpose-cleaner/p/4521716 ?

 

[Vaughn]

That's 6% ammonia

 

[MattKing]

Thanks Vaughn. I looked and looked and looked but still missed that from the listing.

 

[Vaughn]

It still might be available via Canadian chemical suppliers...if the paperwork is not too great.

 

[nmp]

I am not familiar with this type of rapid fixer, but don't you use water to make the fixer? I don't get why you have to use pure ammonia.

:Niranjan.

 

[fgorga]

As a chemist, I am a bit confused... pure ammonia is a gas and is very dangerous to work with. I am guessing that you are referring to a solution of ammonia in water. The ammonia reacts with the water to form ammonium hydroxide. This solution is commonly, but incorrectly, called ammonia.

The solution is sold at various concentrations up to 28 or 30%, at most. I assume that it is this solution that you are referring to.

If you can provide the concentration of your ammonia solution and the recipe for your fixer, I may be able to adapt the recipe to use the 6% solution which others have said is still available. This would entail replacing some of the water in the recipe with the more dilute ammonia solution so that the concentrations of the various components remain the same.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Is standard Amonium Thiosulfate, either the raw chemical or mixed up as rapid fixer, still available in Canada? I am guessing you are making a DIY rapid fixer from the S. Thiosulfate and Ammonia.

 

[hirudin]

I'm also looking for a replacement for 24-28% ammonia solution in Canada for alternative processes, which appears to be inaccessible for regular purchase. Is this not available in Canada at all outside of specialty chemical suppliers?

Edit: it appears that as long as you are looking for ammonium hydroxide, which is just ammonia in water (as stated from a post above) you can purchase 28% ammonium hydroxide from Westlab here in Vancouver.

 

[fgorga]

On replacing, 24-28% ammonia solution with a 6% solution...

Assuming that the final concentration of ammonia needed in the solution is somewhat less than 6%, one can use the less concentrated stock, if you have enough 'room' in the recipe to reduce the amount of water used. You can simply increase the volume of ammonia solution by a factor of 4.33 (ie. 26/6 = 4.33) and decrease the volume of water used in making up the final solution.

A random but concrete example...

If you had a recipe that calls for 50 mL of 26% ammonia in 1 L of final solution, you could simply use 217 mL of 6% ammonia (i.e. 50x4.33 = 216.5). In either case, bringing the final volume to 1 L will give the same final concentration of ammonia.

This will work for most recipes where the only thing that matters is the final concentration of the components. It will not work for a recipe where there might be other chemistry at play, but these cases will be rare.

 

[ic-racer]

Pre-packaged ammonia thiosulfate or sodium thiosulfate fixer does not work? In the Kallitype process, isnt fixing just removing un developed silver, just like conventional silver prints. Don't you have some fixer for your negatives you can use?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

As a chemist, I am a bit confused... pure ammonia is a gas and is very dangerous to work with. I am guessing that you are referring to a solution of ammonia in water. The ammonia reacts with the water to form ammonium hydroxide. This solution is commonly, but incorrectly, called ammonia.

The solution is sold at various concentrations up to 28 or 30%, at most. I assume that it is this solution that you are referring to.

If you can provide the concentration of your ammonia solution and the recipe for your fixer, I may be able to adapt the recipe to use the 6% solution which others have said is still available. This would entail replacing some of the water in the recipe with the more dilute ammonia solution so that the concentrations of the various components remain the same.

You're right. It's the concentrated version found in the cleaning aisle in any grocery store. Sorry for confusion. We can no longer buy even that here.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Is standard Amonium Thiosulfate, either the raw chemical or mixed up as rapid fixer, still available in Canada? I am guessing you are making a DIY rapid fixer from the S. Thiosulfate and Ammonia.

That's correct. I'm mixing sodium thiosulfate and concentrated ammonia.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I'm also looking for a replacement for 24-28% ammonia solution in Canada for alternative processes, which appears to be inaccessible for regular purchase. Is this not available in Canada at all outside of specialty chemical suppliers?

Edit: it appears that as long as you are looking for ammonium hydroxide, which is just ammonia in water (as stated from a post above) you can purchase 28% ammonium hydroxide from Westlab here in Vancouver.

Would that mean I wouldn't have to add the ammonium hydroxide to water, like I was doing with the ammonia? I'll check out Westlab. Thank you!\

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

If I use the ammonium hydroxide from Westlab, would any of you know if I would have to modify the amount of the ammonium hyrdroxide in the fixer formula? Currently I am using 50ml of concentrated ammonia in a litre of water. Thank you!

Here's its PDF

 

[nmp]

Would have to know what is the concentration of your concentrated ammonia in the original recipe.

If I use the ammonium hydroxide from Westlab, would any of you know if I would have to modify the amount of the ammonium hyrdroxide in the fixer formula? Currently I am using 50ml of concentrated ammonia in a litre of water. Thank you!

Here's its PDF

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Would have to know what is the concentration of your concentrated ammonia in the original recipe.

I wish I kept the bottle.. but I believe it was 28%...
Edit: actually I'm not sure. I can tell you that it was household ammonia I bought at a supermarket. So, % was probably quite low.

 

[fgorga]

A 28% solution of ammonia is about as concentrated as ammonia comes. This solution is actually quite caustic and I would be bv surprised if it was available as a consumer product. Here in the US, consumer grade ammonia is about 10%.

If your original solution was really 28%, then the product whose data sheet you posted earlier can be used as a direct replacement for your original solution.

If your original solution was really about 10%, you woul need to use only 0.36 volume of the proposed replacement (10/38 = 0.36). Thus instead of using 50 mL, you would use 18 mL and make up the rest with water.

Alternately, you could use the 6% solution mentioned earlier in this thread. In this case, you would use 4.7 times more (28/6 = 4.7) of the new solution, assuming your original solution was 28%. In other words, you would use 235 mL of the replacement and reduce the amount of water by 235-50=185 mL.

If your original solution was only 10%, the adjustment factor would be 1.7 (10/6=1.7) and you would add 85 mL (1.7×50=85) of the 6% solution while reducing the water by 85-50=35 mL.

Not knowing, for sure, what the actual concentration of the solution you are trying to replace means that you will need to experiment.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

A 28% solution of ammonia is about as concentrated as ammonia comes. This solution is actually quite caustic and I would be bv surprised if it was available as a consumer product. Here in the US, consumer grade ammonia is about 10%.

If your original solution was really 28%, then the product whose data sheet you posted earlier can be used as a direct replacement for your original solution.

If your original solution was really about 10%, you woul need to use only 0.36 volume of the proposed replacement (10/38 = 0.36). Thus instead of using 50 mL, you would use 18 mL and make up the rest with water.

Alternately, you could use the 6% solution mentioned earlier in this thread. In this case, you would use 4.7 times more (28/6 = 4.7) of the new solution, assuming your original solution was 28%. In other words, you would use 235 mL of the replacement and reduce the amount of water by 235-50=185 mL.

If your original solution was only 10%, the adjustment factor would be 1.7 (10/6=1.7) and you would add 85 mL (1.7×50=85) of the 6% solution while reducing the water by 85-50=35 mL.

Not knowing, for sure, what the actual concentration of the solution you are trying to replace means that you will need to experiment.

Thank you!

 

[nmp]

I wish I kept the bottle.. but I believe it was 28%...
Edit: actually I'm not sure. I can tell you that it was household ammonia I bought at a supermarket. So, % was probably quite low.

I think I now understand what you meant by "pure" ammonia - meaning ammonia without any other ingredients like scent, surfactants etc.

Curious about your rapid fixer formula. Don't you need ammonium chloride and not ammonium hydroxide to make ammonium thiosulfate?

:Niranjan.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I think I now understand what you meant by "pure" ammonia - meaning ammonia without any other ingredients like scent, surfactants etc.

Curious about your rapid fixer formula. Don't you need ammonium chloride and not ammonium hydroxide to make ammonium thiosulfate?

:Niranjan.

You are correct. No other ingredients. I believe I got this recipe from the Christopher James book on alt printing. Only sodium thiosulfate and ammonia. One minute fix.

 

[fgorga]

The fixer mentioned in the kallitype section of James' book is 50-55 g sodium thiosulfate in 1 L of water plus 5-10 mL of household ammonia.

Given this information, I would buy the product that Matt King cited in post #2. It sounds like it is much more readily available, and is certainly safer to handle than the lab grade 28% solution mentioned in post #9.

I would 15 or 20 mL of the 6% solution to 1L of a 50 g hypo / L solution.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

The ammonium ions are the important bit; I would think that NH4OH could substitute for NH4Cl in a rapid fixer formula if the impact on pH of the hydroxide is accounted for (and vica versa presuming the chloride is benign to kallitype).

As an aside, is the new restriction a result of the proposed changes to Canada's CEPA law?

 

[DMJ]

I use the recipe from Hirsch's book Photographic possibilities:
1L water (20C)
Sodium thiosulfate 50g
Household ammonia (plain) 12ml

I think household ammonia is 5 to 10 percent ammonium hydroxide (NH3) in water and plain means that there shouldn't be any detergents added? Available in the US in hardware stores, supermarkets and Amazon.

The very names of household ammonia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_solution

Is the ammonia necessary? The recipe for van dykes calls for sodium thiosulfate only, 6 minutes.

 

[Two23]

Can you not remove water from the 6% strength to get what you want?


Kent in SD