No more Dektol - what dev should I buy?

Ole · Jun 19, 2005

Quantities should be adjusted for expected usage and storage life: Metol, hydroquinone and pyrocatechin I buy in 250g lots, phenidone and glycin 100g at most, sodium sulfite and sodium thiosulfate in 15kg, and ammonium chloride in 2kg packs. Lye and sodium carbonate I buy in the local supermarket when I need more.

Nick Zentena · Jun 19, 2005

srs5694 said:
That'll certainly make a big difference -- but then, you've also got to consider how rapidly you go through an item. If you buy 10 pounds of something at $10 a pound but only use a pound a year, you'll be paying $100 up front and it'll take a long time to earn back any savings over buying a smaller quantity at a higher per-pound price. This gets into interest, inflation, shipping discounts, and is generally pretty hairy. I figured supplies for a year or two are plenty, made some wild guesses, and bought a bunch of chemicals. (I just started mixing my own about a month and a half ago.) Given the quantities involved, though, I'm sure my 100g of phenidone is a lifetime supply (actually I got Dimezone-S, since it's preferred for some formulas).

Like Ole said it's a bit of balancing. Something like Sodium Sulfite gets used in almost everything. 1lb is $4 plus shipping. But 10 lbs is $28. From my usual chemical shop. Some people will buy the 50kg bag for not much more but that's too much for me to store.

Any thing that keeps I buy the biggest size I can store.

gnashings · Jun 19, 2005

I think this mixing of chemicals is almost a hobby onto itself! Thanks to all for their help, and I am already "cramming"! Lots to learn, especially for a guy who was not exactly a chemistry (is that how you spell it ) genius...

Peter.

Keith Tapscott. · Jun 20, 2005

gnashings said:
I have always used Dektol for prints. Its excellent for my needs and I think all around its a wonderful, classic looking paper dev.

But I will no longer buy anything in a yellow box (or bag). Screw them.

So, the question is:

What should I buy that will approximate the feel, ease of use, deep blacks and flexibility of Dektol? I would prefer Ilford products, on principle - but am totally unfamiliar with their paper developers.

Thanks for any help in advance!

Peter.

Ilford Multigrade developer is as good as any and it`s a liquid concentrate too, so no dissolving powder.

gnashings · Jun 20, 2005

I think I'll try that until I feel up to mixing my own. Does it keep reasonably well?

thedarkroomstudios · Jun 20, 2005

Reasonably well. Figure about 1/2 year for the concentrate once opened. For the working solution figure a few weeks but it depends on your printing volume and storage habits.

gnashings · Jun 21, 2005

Thanks - its mainly the concentrate that concerns me, I'm glad that keeps well. My head hurts from all the reading! But I am enjoying it!

Peter.

Nick Zentena · Jun 21, 2005

If all you want is something that keeps. Go to Henry's [or who ever is your closets shop] and buy a 500ml bottle of the Agfa Multicontrast.

1) Keeps forever. Both in concentrate and in working solution.

2) Almost cheaper then tap water

3) Makes nice prints

Keith Tapscott. · Jun 21, 2005

gnashings said:
I think I'll try that until I feel up to mixing my own. Does it keep reasonably well?

It keeps very well, even better if you decant it into 500ml brown glass bottles, some Tetenal Protectant or some glass marbles in the bottles will help to prevent oxidation too. Multigrade developer performs well with graded papers as well as variable contrast papers, both RC and FB. The developer was reformulated in the late 1990`s to give improved performance and shelf life, it is used by many fine printers in the UK.

fschifano · Jun 21, 2005

...or you could get some Ilford Bromophen. When you mix up the stock solution from powder it has about the same keeping qualities as Dektol. I've noticed though that you loose a bit of paper speed with this developer, but you can easily compensate for that. On a personal note, I don't really give a darn that Kodak stopped making papers. I still like Dektol and will continue to use it until I can't get any more. Then I'll start mixing up my own D-72 and have the same thing.

Keith Tapscott. · Jun 21, 2005

fschifano said:
...or you could get some Ilford Bromophen. When you mix up the stock solution from powder it has about the same keeping qualities as Dektol. I've noticed though that you loose a bit of paper speed with this developer, but you can easily compensate for that. On a personal note, I don't really give a darn that Kodak stopped making papers. I still like Dektol and will continue to use it until I can't get any more. Then I'll start mixing up my own D-72 and have the same thing.

Bromophen is now discontinued, the 1 litre size of Ilford PQ Universal is also discontinued.

thedarkroomstudios · Jun 21, 2005

Nick's right about Agfa MC, but...
It will turn brown quickly... don't throw it out it is still super-strong
It has a fairly pungent odour... no biggie though
It is considered hazmat by some, so try to buy locally

-Brad

gnashings · Jun 21, 2005

Hmmm, I still see boxes of Bromophen lying around the Henry's stores in the area - as recently as Saturday! I think I will go to Henry's and pick up whatever comes to hand - Ilford or Agfa. If the stuff keeps well, I'm happy (stock - I don't really print enough to worry about working solution). Cheap is good too, right now! Thanks,

Peter.

Nick Zentena · Jun 21, 2005

thedarkroomstudios said:
Nick's right about Agfa MC, but...
It will turn brown quickly... don't throw it out it is still super-strong
It has a fairly pungent odour... no biggie though
It is considered hazmat by some, so try to buy locally

-Brad

The working solution does go brown but the concentrate doesn't. I've never thrown it out. If I notice the bottle has too much head space I top it up with some fresh 1:4 developer.

Do you really find it smells? My sinuses must be worse then I thought-((

I'm a little suprised by the Hazmat.

dancqu · Jun 21, 2005

John Bartley said:
Hi Dan, No, I have't tried that (yet ), and yes, I was using
the 7.5+100 gram version. So far I've only tried varying the
amounts of the components. I assumed from reading, that
the "B" bath needed to be an alkaline "activator". I've
also wondered about the term "divided". It's not
really is it? It's more "extended" cheers

D23 is not really a divided developer; two bath or A + B
would be better. D23 is a complete developer in itself.

Metol is quite acid and even with all that sulfite the ph
runs 8, perhaps 8.1 or.2, depending upon the actual ph
of the sulfite. One big producer of S. Sulfite states a ph
of 10 +/- .3; so phs of 9.7 to 10.3

I've been wondering how you could claim good print
results at the low D23 ph. It must be your B bath that
does it and the fact that the carry over of metol from the
D23 is so little as to pull the ph of the borax B bath, ph
9.2 +/- very little, down only a mite.

I likely give that a try with a sulfite B. I'm a minimalist.
Think of that, metol and sulfite for film and paper. As for
"moving" parts, there couldn't be any fewer. Dan

gnashings · Jun 22, 2005

Actually... speaking of Dektol - I just purchased a "new" enlarger, and the seller threw in a heap of odds and ends that anyone in this hobby knows you can never have enough of like trays, tongs, etc. Along with it, came a bag with various packages of Ilford paper (even some gr 3 single grade paper - which I have not seen in my local store in a long time!). Getting to the point though, wedged in there among the paper was a little yellow bag - Dektol.
It looked quite old - not the shiny, plastic type you see now, but the old fashined paper-feeling material. I assume it dates back a few years (the enlarger was not made past 1980 I believe (Omega B600), and it looked unused once I dusted it off - I assume the Dektol is of a similar vintage). The reason for this background is this:
The Dektol mixed up as per instructions gave me a much darker stock than the last batch that I mixed - it almost looks like coffee or really, really strong tea! I know the stuff gets darker with age, but I thought only once mixed.
Question is - should I even bother trying to use it? It was my understanding that the shelf life of the powder in a sealed bag is pretty much unlimited.

jim appleyard · Jun 22, 2005

Gnashings, give it a try, you have little to lose, except for a test strip or two.

A friend gave me some old chemistry and amongst all of it was some OLD glycin, very brown looking. I mixed up some Ancso 130 and used it as my paper dev. The stuff worked, but stained all the prints a very light tan; gave the prints a "warmtone" look to them, useful for some images, not for others. Your old Dektol could do the same.

gnashings · Jun 22, 2005

I suppose you'r right - not much loss. I guess I'll go out and buy something else before printing, just incase there are issues. I have a very much make-shift darkroom set up, so I'd hate to mix everything up, set all the equipment and lightproofing just to find out I have to fold shop again! This way I'll have a back up. I can't wait to try out the enlarger - the old Meopta was getting a little...rickety to say the least!

John Bartley · Jun 22, 2005

dancqu said:
I've been wondering how you could claim good print
results at the low D23 ph. It must be your B bath that
does it and the fact that the carry over of metol from the
D23 is so little as to pull the ph of the borax B bath, ph
9.2 +/- very little, down only a mite.
I likely give that a try with a sulfite B. I'm a minimalist.
Think of that, metol and sulfite for film and paper. As for
"moving" parts, there couldn't be any fewer. Dan

Hehehe - I think the idea of "good" print results is relative. I'm very new to developing my own film et-al, so I'm still impressed when I see that image coming up on the paper .
I would like to thank you Dan, for the reponses that you have directed at my post, for they have me thinking about trying the things that you have suggested. Minimalism is something that I don't consciously work at, but do admire, so in keeping with that.....I'll try your ideas.

cheers and thank you

gnashings · Jun 22, 2005

OK, tonight is the night of the Brown Dektol - we'll see what happens...as soon as it gets dark....It looks like COca Cola...

Michael L. Dunlap · Jun 24, 2005

Gnashings, I was just curious, what is your beef with Kodak?

thedarkroomstudios · Jun 24, 2005

Michael L. Dunlap said:
Gnashings, I was just curious, what is your beef with Kodak?

Methinks gnashings once drank old Dektol, having mistook it for his Coke (or was it a Guiness?)... now he blames Kodak But it wasn't really their fault he was zoned out at 3:30am muttering something about 'perfect negative my arse, I'll burn, oh yeah.. I'll burn ya gooooood' while trying to keep his chemistry and his liquid refreshements in line.

Gerald Koch · Jun 24, 2005

You can get good prices on chemicals from non-photo sources. For example, I get sodium erythorbate from www.suttonbaytrading.com ($6.33 / lb) that sells it for making sausage and potassium metabisulfite from www.thewinelab.com ($4 / kg) sold for sterilizing wine making equipment. I find most companies that sell photochemicals charge really high prices even for common chemicals.

gnashings · Jun 24, 2005

thedarkroomstudios said:
Methinks gnashings once drank old Dektol, having mistook it for his Coke (or was it a Guiness?)... now he blames Kodak But it wasn't really their fault he was zoned out at 3:30am muttering something about 'perfect negative my arse, I'll burn, oh yeah.. I'll burn ya gooooood' while trying to keep his chemistry and his liquid refreshements in line.

Hehehehehee... yeah, thats pretty much me

I think its time to double up on the medication if its becomeing that bvious

For now, I will just litter my posts with happy faces

Seriously, I just read Kodak's mission statement - and it just doesn't sound like they want me as a customer. I have no delusions about my "embargo" making a difference, it just makes me feel better not go where I am not wanted. And you guys really reinforced my feeling that I can get along nicely without them.

After I get through this last batch of Dektol (second hand, so I don't feel conflicted )

Thanks for all the help,

Peter.

srs5694 · Jun 24, 2005

Gerald Koch said:
You can get good prices on chemicals from non-photo sources. For example, I get sodium erythorbate from www.suttonbaytrading.com ($6.33 / lb) that sells it for making sausage and potassium metabisulfite from www.thewinelab.com ($4 / kg) sold for sterilizing wine making equipment. I find most companies that sell photochemicals charge really high prices even for common chemicals.

FWIW, that first URL isn't working for me -- I get a DNS error on it. I don't know if it's just me or if there's a typo in what you presented.

In any event, I certainly agree that the specialty photo suppliers tend to charge inflated prices. The Chemistry Store, which has been discussed a lot in this and/or in one or two other current threads, seems to market to home/hobbyist soap-making people, but they've got good prices on a lot of things that are useful for darkroom chemistry making, like sodium thiosulfate, sodium sulfite, citric acid, ascorbic acid, etc. Their shipping prices are high, but even with that, their overall prices are good.

No more Dektol - what dev should I buy?

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