nikonscan workflow

[Cinema]

Can anyone help me move into nikonscan from vuescan? I love the inversion software and the scan options in vuescan but the ICE is horrible and leaves noticeable scarring. unlike nikonscan which has real ICE and works beautifully without artifacting.

What I’d like to do in nikonscan is edit white balance like i do in vuescan, as well as set the white point to preserve highlights like I can in vuescan (moving it from 1% to .1%)

does anyone know if something like this is possible? the nikonscan software is kind of hard for me to navigate. i have done the time learning vuescan to the point where i can get a flat, linear scan with shadow and highlight detail, whereas NS does tend to crush the lower and blow the higher ends.

Gear: nikon coolscan 5000, windows 10

 

[Les Sarile]

If one of your concerns is how to create and recall settings in Nikonscan then perhaps my step by step instruction will address that -> Coolscan create-save-apply settings. Images 1 - 5 shows how to create and save a setting and 6 - 13 is how to recall and apply it.
When you create a setting to save, you can enable/disable and of the characteristics you want from film type, ICE mode, white point, etc. When you recall it, you can then selectively apply it to one or more frames as you want.

With that said, my typical setup is to disable all curves, color balance, unsharp, LCHI never setup black and white points but I do apply ICE (normal/fine) as needed. I prefer to underexpose by setting Analog Gain Master to -0.2 to -0.6 to preserve the highlights and recover in post. I find that Nikonscan tends to overexpose a little bit so my saved setting usually includes a -0.2 applied to all my scans. Now when I purposely overexpose a frame or two, those will look obvious in the thumbnail so I adjust the analog gain for those individually.

Generally speaking, all color and b&w film have so much latitude that the highlights are usually preserved but some post work will be needed to bring out the shadow area. For instance in this Kodak Porta 400 the film has captured the deep dark shadows and the blownout highlights but post work to see both will have to be done - if wanted.

Kodak Portra 400-04-24A by Les DMess, on Flickr

You can also apply an over and under exposure to a frame using analog gain and use HDR in post or you can just use the shadows and highlights tool as I did in this frame of Fuji RVP100.

Fuji RVP100_04-06HDR by Les DMess, on Flickr

 

[Cinema]

hey thanks for the info. i’ve seen your posts on flickr before. how do you deal with losing info on the low end if you are underexposing the scan to preserve highlights?

in vuescan i can simply alter the white point and this does it for me, which is really convenient. it doesn’t really crush the low end like analog gain does. I'm worried I won't be able to recover detail if i want it since i'm embedding the image with a lower exposure. if i did need the low end then it would result in more noise trying to recover it.

As I understand it, the 'shadows' and 'highlight' tools in nikonscan are basically just like slider in other photo editors, and it's applied after the scan

 

[Les Sarile]

Interstingly I've noticed that Nikonscan can see in the deep dark shadows. For instance in this very high contrast shot using contrasty Kodak Ektar 100 with the shiny subject under an overhead sun, I can easily bring out shadow details that I would have thought lost just using the shadows tool. Notice no added "noise" or exaggerated grain either. I suppose I could have dialed analog gain another percentage or so to fully capture all the blownout highlights but I thought it would look less natural.

Untitled by Les DMess, on Flickr

I definitely prefer to scan with minimal adjustments and prefer to do that in post as the tools in Nikonscan are not as "selective". For instance using Nikonscan's GEM - grain reduction, is not as precise/selective and I usually leave that process as a final step if needed for the final output.

 

[Les Sarile]

BTW, the Nikonscan manual goes into great detail about setting up black and white points if you haven't already reviewed it -> Nikon Scan support

 

[Cinema]

BTW, the Nikonscan manual goes into great detail about setting up black and white points if you haven't already reviewed it -> Nikon Scan support

Thanks. that link appears to be broken but i have the original disk around here somewhere.

one thing i think nikonscan needs that i rely on vuescan for is that white point (doesn't need to underexpose the negative) and the white balance feature. it just makes the original scan a bit closer to what i need to begin editing. but i will try all your recommendations. thanks

When I go to edit the white point in nikonscan, I still cannot recover the highlights which the software is blowing. My suspicion is that the software/hardware interface is overexposing the negative, because in vuescan, I can adjust my white point and retain all the info I want.

The solution, then, would be to somehow get the software to correctly expose the negative so that setting white point and black point would actually be useful. When I use the dropper to select a blown highlight, it still won't properly adjust the curve. That means the software is blowing it. In vuescan, the same image will be able to have the highlight easily recovered from the raw scan file.

Since the software seems to auto-expose for every shot, and always overexposes, it seems you compensate with reducing analog gain. I'm not sure that's what vuescan is doing though, because I don't tell it to reduce the analog gain, and i can still retain highlight info unavailable in nikonscan.

 

[Les Sarile]

Thanks. that link appears to be broken but i have the original disk around here somewhere. one thing i think nikonscan needs that i rely on vuescan for is that white point (doesn't need to underexpose the negative) and the white balance feature. it just makes the original scan a bit closer to what i need to begin editing. but i will try all your recommendations. thanks

Odd about that link requiring password - or sometimes not, when I click it on my phone or another computer?
Google nikonscan manual and the pdf comes up directly -> https://cdn-10.nikon-cdn.com/pdf/NS4_man.pdf

Although I've made many scans over the years, I will try setting black and white points. In vuescan, is that particular to each and every frame?

 

[Cinema]

Odd about that link requiring password - or sometimes not, when I click it on my phone or another computer?
Google nikonscan manual and the pdf comes up directly -> https://cdn-10.nikon-cdn.com/pdf/NS4_man.pdf

Although I've made many scans over the years, I will try setting black and white points. In vuescan, is that particular to each and every frame?

Automatically vuescan sets the white point at 1%, which means that 99% of whites are being captured and it's letting the other 1% clip. What I do is, instead of setting white point to 1, I set it to .1. That means it's capturing 99.9% of whites, and only letting .1% clip. Sounds like nothing, but try it. There's a lot more there. You can change the white point frame per frame or do a batch scan with the same white point.

My conclusion would be then, that for some reason nikon isn't exposing the negative the same way vuescan is, because i can't recover those same highlights in NS. Unless I'm using the software incorrectly, which i definitely could be. When i go to set the white point, i just can't get as much info as vuescan. the info seems to simply not be there. I am aware of 'Digital DEE' available with the 5000, but it seems like a marketing bit and i should be able to not have to go through perfecting that value every time i want to scan a frame, but maybe i am wrong. I have not used it yet. it's just that VS will have all the highlight and shadow info I want from the get go.

For example, on the image of the plane you posted, the reflection of the sun on the nose and the wing in the right part of the frame is blown and contains no information. Try setting your white point in vuescan to .1 or even .01, and see if there's anything left over that nikon is missing. i think there may be something.

 

[albireo]

Can anyone help me move into nikonscan from vuescan? I love the inversion software and the scan options in vuescan but the ICE is horrible and leaves noticeable scarring. unlike nikonscan which has real ICE and works beautifully without artifacting.

What I’d like to do in nikonscan is edit white balance like i do in vuescan, as well as set the white point to preserve highlights like I can in vuescan (moving it from 1% to .1%)

does anyone know if something like this is possible? the nikonscan software is kind of hard for me to navigate. i have done the time learning vuescan to the point where i can get a flat, linear scan with shadow and highlight detail, whereas NS does tend to crush the lower and blow the higher ends.

Gear: nikon coolscan 5000, windows 10

There is a topic which pertains to your question over on the Nikon Coolscan Facebook Group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1514948298527146

Check out the recent thread by Allen Ying. In short, my understanding is that Nikon Scan applies quite aggressive clipping to both ends of the histogram, and it's extremely difficult to bypass those. Though, there is a hack as suggested in the thread above. Vuescan makes it much simpler to extend the histogram to include the complete distribution tails.

However - I do understand your desire to use NikonScan. I use both Vuescan and Nikonscan and like both. On top of the ICE/ROC/GEM advantages you mention, there is another massive one: Nikonscan's colour inversion routines are breathtakingly good. Leagues ahead of what Vuescan does out of the box, and better IME even than these expensive tools popping out today. It completely obliterates Negative Lab Pro, for instance, whereas Colorperfect gets you there, but the learning curve is much steeper. Of course, you could obtain similar results with Vuescan and a good amount of post-processing work on the linear 48bit positive, but why not use that time to go out and shoot some more. I should also say Nikonscan's clipping is not an issue with low to medium contrast negatives IME.

 

[Cinema]

There is a topic which pertains to your question over on the Nikon Coolscan Facebook Group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1514948298527146

Check out the recent thread by Allen Ying. In short, my understanding is that Nikon Scan applies quite aggressive clipping to both ends of the histogram, and it's extremely difficult to bypass those. Though, there is a hack as suggested in the thread above. Vuescan makes it much simpler to extend the histogram to include the complete distribution tails.

However - I do understand your desire to use NikonScan. I use both Vuescan and Nikonscan and like both. On top of the ICE/ROC/GEM advantages you mention, there is another massive one: Nikonscan's colour inversion routines are breathtakingly good. Leagues ahead of what Vuescan does out of the box, and better IME even than these expensive tools popping out today. It completely obliterates Negative Lab Pro, for instance, whereas Colorperfect gets you there, but the learning curve is much steeper. Of course, you could obtain similar results with Vuescan and a good amount of post-processing work on the linear 48bit positive, but why not use that time to go out and shoot some more. I should also say Nikonscan's clipping is not an issue with low to medium contrast negatives IME.

nikon scan inversion is good. i have a workflow down in vuescan that gets pretty close, i mean i can’t tell the difference at this point. negative lab pro is so bad its useless. the problem is, i do tend to shoot 1/2 to 1 stop over box speed on color negative so ns is very bad at drawing out the info i need. i think the solution to mentioned above into tricking the scanner into exposing down is too much work and even then it looks like the results are simply too dark for me to want to work from. i wish there was another app with actual ICE GEM DEE etc

 

[albireo]

I wish there was another way of another app with actual ICE GEM DEE etc

Agreed. Big fan on Vuescan mind you, but it's odd they never quite got to drive the IR channel the way Nikon does via its software. I wonder why. It has to be due to copyrighted Assembler code too tricky to reverse engineer.

 

[Cholentpot]

nikon scan inversion is good. i have a workflow down in vuescan that gets pretty close, i mean i can’t tell the difference at this point. negative lab pro is so bad its useless. the problem is, i do tend to shoot 1/2 to 1 stop over box speed on color negative so ns is very bad at drawing out the info i need. i think the solution to mentioned above into tricking the scanner into exposing down is too much work and even then it looks like the results are simply too dark for me to want to work from. i wish there was another app with actual ICE GEM DEE etc

What's your issue with NLP? It's been excellent for me using DSLR scanning.

 

[Cinema]

What's your issue with NLP? It's been excellent for me using DSLR scanning.

color negative? different strokes i guess.

 

[Cholentpot]

color negative? different strokes i guess.

C-41 and ECN-II developed in C-41.

I'm about to get a Coolscan 5000 that a local photographer is done with. I'm following this convo to see what I need to do to get it up and running and if it's worth the effort. I have my DSLR workflow down pretty pat but I suspect a dedicated machine designed for scanning may do better.

 

[jtk]

I use Vuescan with my Nikon scanner. Vuescan IR work; fine with Win10 and 11. Don't know anyone who bothers with Apple.

 

[Les Sarile]

C-41 and ECN-II developed in C-41.

I'm about to get a Coolscan 5000 that a local photographer is done with. I'm following this convo to see what I need to do to get it up and running and if it's worth the effort. I have my DSLR workflow down pretty pat but I suspect a dedicated machine designed for scanning may do better.

I bought a cheap HP desktop with a built-in firewire port runing Windows Vista and use it with Nikonscan 4.03. I believe there is a way to run Nikonscan on current OS. I just haven't bothered since I use the PC just as a dedicated scanning machine.

BTW, in the tens of thousands of frames from all types of 35mm films I've scanned todate with the 5000 - including some 110, I've only encountered one problem. A particular 6 frame strip of seemingly well exposed color negatives I inserted into the SA21 would misregister the frames and would be offset from frames 2 - 6. It was from a coworker's collection of films who tried it on his 5000 and noticed that it was misregistering the frame so he asked me to try it on mine. Interestingly enough, I simply inserted it the other way around - instead of frames 1-2-3-4-5-6 to 6-5-4-3-2-1, and it scanned just fine. Really odd and I've only encountered it that one time and was not a problem with the rest of that roll.

 

[Cholentpot]

I bought a cheap HP desktop with a built-in firewire port runing Windows Vista and use it with Nikonscan 4.03. I believe there is a way to run Nikonscan on current OS. I just haven't bothered since I use the PC just as a dedicated scanning machine.

BTW, in the tens of thousands of frames from all types of 35mm films I've scanned todate with the 5000 - including some 110, I've only encountered one problem. A particular 6 frame strip of seemingly well exposed color negatives I inserted into the SA21 would misregister the frames and would be offset from frames 2 - 6. It was from a coworker's collection of films who tried it on his 5000 and noticed that it was misregistering the frame so he asked me to try it on mine. Interestingly enough, I simply inserted it the other way around - instead of frames 1-2-3-4-5-6 to 6-5-4-3-2-1, and it scanned just fine. Really odd and I've only encountered it that one time and was not a problem with the rest of that roll.

I have an old windows 7 machine. Might be worthwhile to make it a scanning rig. I'd have to get a firewire card for it though.

110 can be scanned with the 5000? I guess I'd have to look for the carrier for it.

 

[Cinema]

Agreed. Big fan on Vuescan mind you, but it's odd they never quite got to drive the IR channel the way Nikon does via its software. I wonder why. It has to be due to copyrighted Assembler code too tricky to reverse engineer.

they probably don’t care enough to do a better job. it works for most who aren’t looking as closely, and it’s like one guy writing the software. i’d pay double if they were able to license ice software from kodak or something

 

[Les Sarile]

I have an old windows 7 machine. Might be worthwhile to make it a scanning rig. I'd have to get a firewire card for it though.

110 can be scanned with the 5000? I guess I'd have to look for the carrier for it.

Now I've seen 110 film carriers but when I scanned mine I simply sandwhiched it with the FH3 then scooted it up manually. It was really tedious but I didn't have too many and it's a mere seconds to scan a frame.

Scanning 110 film with the Coolscan 5000 by Les DMess, on Flickr

Also much easier to do it on my 9000 and glass holder now if I need to do more.

 

[Les Sarile]

they probably don’t care enough to do a better job. it works for most who aren’t looking as closely, and it’s like one guy writing the software. i’d pay double if they were able to license ice software from kodak or something

When I got my Coolscan 5000 in early 2000, Ed admitted he does not drive the IR as Nikonscan does and I believe he said it was a copyright issue.

 

[Cholentpot]

Now I've seen 110 film carriers but when I scanned mine I simply sandwhiched it with the FH3 then scooted it up manually. It was really tedious but I didn't have too many and it's a mere seconds to scan a frame.

Scanning 110 film with the Coolscan 5000 by Les DMess, on Flickr

Also much easier to do it on my 9000 and glass holder now if I need to do more.

I might just stick with the DSLR for 110/16mm. Thanks for the photos though, very helpful.

 

[albireo]

I bought a cheap HP desktop with a built-in firewire port runing Windows Vista and use it with Nikonscan 4.03. I believe there is a way to run Nikonscan on current OS.

Les, I run NikonScan 4.0.3 without any issues on a relatively modern Windows 10 64bit Dell PC, my standard workstation. I used the instructions here

Using NikonScan

Nikon Coolscan photo-scanner servicing & repair based in Lincoln UK

lincolnscan.co.uk

My Coolscan 8000ED by the way was recognized by the machine and worked straight out of the box using one of those cheap PCI-E Firewire Cards. Just popped it in and was ready to go.

 

[Les Sarile]

Les, I run NikonScan 4.0.3 without any issues on a relatively modern Windows 10 64bit Dell PC, my standard workstation. I used the instructions here

Using NikonScan

Nikon Coolscan photo-scanner servicing & repair based in Lincoln UK

lincolnscan.co.uk

My Coolscan 8000ED by the way was recognized by the machine and worked straight out of the box using one of those cheap PCI-E Firewire Cards. Just popped it in and was ready to go.

Thank you for that.
Others have told me about this but the scanner PCs are working I just haven't been motivated enough to move over. Then of course Windows 11 is just around the corner too!

 

[Les Sarile]

I might just stick with the DSLR for 110/16mm. Thanks for the photos though, very helpful.

I'm sure you'll be able to determine which one is best to use specially after you get your Coolscan 5000!
BTW, the manual suggests sufficient RAM in the scanning PC as it uses quite a bit. This and a USB2 port will affect scan speed. With mine, a 4000dpi scan takes about 30 seconds without ICE and about 50 seconds with ICE.

 

[Cholentpot]

I'm sure you'll be able to determine which one is best to use specially after you get your Coolscan 5000!
BTW, the manual suggests sufficient RAM in the scanning PC as it uses quite a bit. This and a USB2 port will affect scan speed. With mine, a 4000dpi scan takes about 30 seconds without ICE and about 50 seconds with ICE.

32gb ought to be sufficient. The old PC only has 16.