Nikon SP vs Leica M for choice of lenses

[lxdude]

The Nikon SP is better built internally, and has a rock-solid shutter (basically the same shutter as the one in the Nikon F). A tank.

As I recall, the first run of the Nikon F had the SP's silk cloth shutter. I think something like 200 cameras.

 

[summicron1]

i bought an S2 three years ago and love it. Also have M4, 3 and 2 -- sickness! -- so I can speak to both.

Modern Leica lenses are amazingly expensive -- forget it. Vintage lenses are jst as good and cheaper. Still, they are pricey -- My 21mm is Leitz but my 25 is a Canon. Really, Canon RF lenses are really good and a lot cheaper. I mean, unless you are either a total Leica snob or you put all your glass on an optical bench.

With the Nikon I ended up buying it with a 50 and bought a Nikon 135. I like wide angle lenses and, as others have noted, those in Nikon brand are very expensive collectibles.

However, Voigtlander/Cosina lenses in Nikon RF mount are a LOT cheaper and amazingly good -- I have a 21, 24 and 35 and they are really really good. You need an auxiliary finder but you do in the M system too.

In terms of usability, the Nikon RF cameras, especially the S3 and up, give the M3 a run for its money. Even the S2, with no parallax compensation or adjustable frame lines, is a really easy camera to use.

Honestly, you can't go wrong with either system.

 

[Huss]

i bought an S2 three years ago and love it. Also have M4, 3 and 2 -- sickness! -- so I can speak to both.
..

In terms of usability, the Nikon RF cameras, especially the S3 and up, give the M3 a run for its money. Even the S2, with no parallax compensation or adjustable frame lines, is a really easy camera to use.

..

If you're just going to use a 50mm lens, I find the S2 better than the S3 or the SP because it only has one big 50mm frame line set.
The S2 also seems to have a better/brighter RF blob than the S3 and SP.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Is the S3 preferred over the SP or do I have that wrong?

 

[Huss]

SP is seen to be 'better' as it has parallax correction (S3 does not) and only shows the frame lines that you select. S3 shows all three sets of frame lines all the time.

 

[Moose22]

S3 is the consumer version. It's small things, like it has frame lines that are stationary with no parallax correction, so just little pips where you'll end up when you get to the focus range and the frame lines for 35 50 and I think 85 on the screen all at once. SP has frames for I think 50 through 135. I don't know if one's preferred over the other, they're just slightly different.

 

[GregY]

the SP has framelines for 28,35,50,85,105,135. The S3 only 35,50,105

 

[Moose22]

the SP has framelines for 28,35,50,85,105,135. The S3 only 35,50,105

Nice. I didn't realize the SP went wider! That and parallax correction are great definitely pro features.

Big difference is S3 is no correction and all the lines are always there, though I don't think it is distracting, I do prefer like on my M. Gloriously uncluttered at 50mm.

 

[OrientPoint]

The 28mm/35mm finder on the SP is a separate window from that used for the other focal lengths. It's like having an external finder built in (if that makes any sense at all). It's actually incredibly handy.

 

[__Brian]

As I recall, the first run of the Nikon F had the SP's silk cloth shutter. I think something like 200 cameras.

The first 12,000 or so Nikon SP's have cloth shutters. The later SP has Titanium Foil, like the Nikon F. You can replace the shutter curtains of the SP, S3, and S4 with curtains from a NIkon F. Both of my Nikon SP's are Titanium shutters.

 

[Huss]

Cameraworks in the UK actually can modify the Nikon Ti curtains for Leica M camera use.
Pretty cool!

 

[lxdude]

The first 12,000 or so Nikon SP's have cloth shutters. The later SP has Titanium Foil, like the Nikon F. You can replace the shutter curtains of the SP, S3, and S4 with curtains from a NIkon F. Both of my Nikon SP's are Titanium shutters.

I recall hearing that the very first Nikon Fs had cloth shutters, which were quickly changed to titanium, which was then adopted on the SPs. I'll try to find the source- it's been a while.

EDIT: Here are a couple of sources:


Cameraquest:

Nikon F Early

cameraquest.com

Nikonrumors:

Rare Nikon F camera with original cloth-type shutter curtain for sale on eBay - Nikon Rumors

Long time [NR] contributor Ron Volmershausen sent me a note about this very rare Nikon F camera currently listed on eBay (last bid $2,204): This listing on eBay is going to create a bit of a ‘stir’ amongst the collectors; the 87th Nikon F to roll off the production line, way back in 1959. The […]

nikonrumors.com

 

[__Brian]

I've known that the first hundred or so Nikon F bodies had cloth shutters from working in a camera shop in the 1970s. I have not handles one in person.
There are some unusual variations of the Nikon F- I have 3 of them with Mirror-Up releases, meaning not having to waste a shot to raise the mirror. Celestron sold these to go with Telescopes, others also added this feature.

 

[David Lindquist]

I've known that the first hundred or so Nikon F bodies had cloth shutters from working in a camera shop in the 1970s. I have not handles one in person.
There are some unusual variations of the Nikon F- I have 3 of them with Mirror-Up releases, meaning not having to waste a shot to raise the mirror. Celestron sold these to go with Telescopes, others also added this feature.

(Warning, 50+ year old memory here.) As I recall Marty Forscher/Professional Camera Repair of New York City would make this modification to the Nikon F. Also as I recall Questar would sell these modified bodies to go with their telescopes.

David

 

[swchris]

I like my 2 Contax Ss (pre-war and after-war).

 

[Two23]

Any thoughts on the Zeiss RF equivalent?


Kent in SD

 

[bpndy]

Thank you everyone for your posts. I am blown away by the support I received here. I bought a M6 TTL from eBay. More posts to follow requesting your critique.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

 

[Moose22]

Thank you everyone for your posts. I am blown away by the support I received here. I bought a M6 TTL from eBay. More posts to follow requesting your critique.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

So, what lenses are you going to use? There's the REAL question.

 

[bpndy]

Indeed. I bought Voigtlander 35mm f/2.5 Color-Skopar along with this; only because it looked decent and reasonably priced. Once I have some idea about photographing on this camera then I may look for Summicron 50mm. Those lenses, by jove, are expensive!

 

[Moose22]

Indeed. I bought Voigtlander 35mm f/2.5 Color-Skopar along with this; only because it looked decent and reasonably priced. Once I have some idea about photographing on this camera then I may look for Summicron 50mm. Those lenses, by jove, are expensive!

I've had my eye on a Voigtlander 50mm F2 APO-Lanthar as a fast 50. I probably won't bother, though. A bit of sharpness in the corners isn't exactly vital for what I want fast lenses for. I should really be thinking about a good 90.

I have a vintage collapsible Summicron that's not bad at all, especially considering it is 70 years old. And my beater is a zeiss planar 50 that is also really nice and super sharp by between 2.8 and 4, but the newer Summicron M is just a ridiculously nice lens.

I'm using an M3, so different framelines, my 35mm has glasses, and all that. Others here will tell you what works best with the M6, which is such a nice camera! You'll get good use out of it, I'm certain.

 

[guangong]

Huss,

Please take a few dozens of hours to polish your photo history knowledge. All the ressources are out there and it’s a fun ride.

Basically, the Nikon F took the photo world by storm, selling in excess of 1 Million units while, during that same time, Leica sold only around 200K cameras. That makes it only 1/5th. And it all went downhill, extremely fast, deeper and deeper.

The niche rf world was in bad shape. What kept Leica alive were its diehard followers. Not the mainstream market.

Mainstream market was basically: amateurs, newspapers, olympics, sports, fashion, wide angle, telephoto... anything. Schools, moms and pops. SLRs. MILLIONS of SLRS. Probably 500 SLR cameras for every single rf sold.

Ask yourself the question, why did Canon exit the rf world? Did you forget about them? They used the LTM mount, as you alluded earlier. And you forgot about Olympus, Pentax, Minolta slrs?

Just a few years ago, before and during the M8 days, Leica was a hair away of bankruptcy, and that was following their M5 days, which followed the poor M4 days... B&H couldn’t unload the Leica lenses even with 25% rebates in the 2000’s. A summilux 50 was going for 2000$ and less, new. Almost nobody wanted to touch them except the diehards.
I for one, was willing to die with my Leicas and stop shooting the day they’d stop manufacturing. Folks like this are the ones who kept the boat. The 1%.

The camera that saved Leica was the M9, and the digital world/era. In the digital era, people started to expect SMALLER devices. Think iphone. And this is where Leica got their swag back by total and absolute luck, finally the M form got in tune with the digital times... fuji got on board.

Leica was on life support and somehow survived until the market changed in its favor. Not the other way around. They had extremely difficult years, decades.

And so on.

Leica started to breathe when Kauffman bought the ship from disaster. Before him, Lee the director was causing a lot of harm. Kauffman decided that, in its extreme Niche market, the only way to survive would be to go Luxury full speed. Luxury and legacy. Slowly, the HCB stories/hype started to follow. The Magnum “legend” got into people’s heads. Street photography got hyped again. Even Magnum got back its mojo, thanks to legendary obacure stories. Basically, the digital market was annew pradigm shift and the asian market was very thirsty for anything western.

In conclusion, Nikon, and Canon, did not see any future in the rf system, and there was NONE. Even today, the present and future is not in the RF but in the mirrorless system, and no rangefidners are not mirrorless. That’s where Canon and Nikon and Leica are headed: mirrorless.
The M film system is a sub-sub-sub-sub-niche for crazy people as myself and a few others. Leica does not survive on that, but it is our crowd that keeps it mythical. And Leica needs that Myth to stay alive.

Leica tried many times to get away from the M system as we know it. They didn’t succeed because of its core custimer base didn’t let them. This was a blessing but also a terrible curse. Look at the various M6 prototypes, the M5. The leica crowd didnmt want those, and they didn’t want the lesser SLR offerings. The Leicaflex was brilliant, but extremely expensive. Leica was really between a rock abd a hard place. They couldn’t break through. All they had was the M line, and that was a cursed position to be in.

Too much to write. Just look it up.

You have the story. I happen to know that the day that the M5 arrived at Leitz USA, even the employees panned it because it didn’t look like a Leica M camera. It died because the Leica nuts rejected it. The failure of the M5 played a big role in the collapse of Leitz. On the other hand, the M5 was my wife’s favorite camera.
Most folks on Phototrio are too young to have experienced the excitement of the Nikon F...enough excitement that Erenreich distributors in US were able to charge about $500 (in 1960 $) for a camera that sold for $150 in Japan. Many have no idea of the impact of the Nikon F on 35 mm photography.

 

[Huss]

Indeed. I bought Voigtlander 35mm f/2.5 Color-Skopar along with this; only because it looked decent and reasonably priced. Once I have some idea about photographing on this camera then I may look for Summicron 50mm. Those lenses, by jove, are expensive!

Excellent lens! Use that for a while and then see how you feel about getting other lenses.

 

[Huss]

I've had my eye on a Voigtlander 50mm F2 APO-Lanthar as a fast 50. I probably won't bother, though. A bit of sharpness in the corners isn't exactly vital for what I want fast lenses for. I should really be thinking about a good 90.

I have a vintage collapsible Summicron that's not bad at all, especially considering it is 70 years old. And my beater is a zeiss planar 50 that is also really nice and super sharp by between 2.8 and 4, but the newer Summicron M is just a ridiculously nice lens.

I'm using an M3, so different framelines, my 35mm has glasses, and all that. Others here will tell you what works best with the M6, which is such a nice camera! You'll get good use out of it, I'm certain.

If you want a fast 50 I recommend the CV 50 1.5 v2 Vintage. Tiny and great optics. Really nice build quality. The only thing I don’t like about mine is the sharp edged focus ring and the goofy aperture ring tabs. I fixed the focus ring by attaching a Lenstab and I’ll just have to get over my precious self re. the aperture ring.

Thread here:

Voigtlander 50mm f/1.5 II Aspherical Review - Sony Forum - Photography - FM Forums

Join the Sony Forum photography discussion:

www.fredmiranda.com

 

[Moose22]

If you want a fast 50 I recommend the CV 50 1.5 v2 Vintage. Tiny and great optics. Really nice build quality. The only thing I don’t like about mine is the sharp edged focus ring and the goofy aperture ring tabs. I fixed the focus ring by attaching a Lenstab and I’ll just have to get over my precious self re. the aperture ring.

Thread here:

Voigtlander 50mm f/1.5 II Aspherical Review - Sony Forum - Photography - FM Forums

Join the Sony Forum photography discussion:

www.fredmiranda.com

Good option.

But I am serious, I shouldn't be drooling over 50s. My current ones are both nice lenses for now. If I get more glass for the leica it should be a 90. Buying another usable stop over my f/4 would help.

I find myself shooting a lot at 2-2.8 with 85 or 105 on the Nikons, it's a good field of view for shooting concerts without standing in everyone's way, and I can get 1/60 out of f/2.8 with stage lights and portra 800 or cinestill. Any slower a shutter I miss shots -- musicians move around too much -- and at 2.8 with 1600 I can usually capture some more energetic folks on B&W.

Sounds like an elmarit M or tele elmarit 90 2.8 fits the bill. Not exactly in a hurry for another lens, but it would be fun to shoot music on a nice, quiet rangefinder.

 

[flavio81]

Any thoughts on the Zeiss RF equivalent?

I own the Contax IIa and IIIa (both are post-war cameras).

Now the good part:

- Their build quality is second to none except maybe to the Rolleiflexes, externally and internally.

- The rangefinder, on a camera that hasn't suffered the effects of humidity/etc, is very clear.

- The design of the rangefinder makes it almost impervious to misalignment by shock or by wear.

- Rangefinder is very precise (long base)

- Some inexpensive good lenses available like the soviet Helios-103, Jupiter-8, Jupiter-3, Jupiter-9, etc are available, giving some options.

- The Zeiss lenses, particularly the post-war lenses, are excellent.

- Reasonably compact

- Can be used with take-up cassete which IMO is very nice if you develop your own film.

The bad or ugly:

- Most of these cameras will require camera service, even if they appear to work just fine. Many BAD camera technicians compensate for shutter problems by increasing the shutter tension (something that can be done without disassembling the camera, so the really lazy technicians just do that and charge you). This will put undue stress on the mechanism that can reportedly even break the curtains.

- Camera that has not received a proper CLA won't hit 1/1250 speed (it will be blank or have fading) OR it will have undue shutter tension OR the top speed will really be much less than 1/1250.

- The camera isn't impossible to service, far from that: it's rather easy to strip down fully, but the technician needs to be familiar with them to do a proper job.

- The viewfinder has no frame lines and is small compared to the competition. If you are used to use accessory viewfinders all the time, it isn't a problem, but of course slows you down compared to a more modern rangefinder camera.

- You can't mount the Jupiter-12 35/2.8 lens on them. This is an inexpensive, acceptable-to-good lens. Nor the 35/2.8 pre-war Biogons.

- "Black dial" cameras have no built-in flash connectors, requiring an external module. On the other hand, they're easier to service than the "color-dial" models with PC connector.