Nikon FM3a vs Leica M7

Sirius Glass · Jan 13, 2016

With the slr mirror black out I can take one frame per jump and get perfection. It is all about knowing how to use the camera. I have not had a need to spray photographs period. Spraying as part of dust abatement while offroading and voiding a bladder is one good use for spraying. Also paint a wall or a car with paint, but in photography spraying is a crutch for the inexperienced.

ColColt · Jan 13, 2016

I find using the M2 or the D7000 or F2A are all the same. I have no problems with any of them. I do think the lens for the M2 have somewhat of an edge on the ones I use for the F2A but at times it's a toss up. I don't cull any of them as I use and love them all.

I had to adjust the RF focus a touch not long back which with that camera only involves a 2mm screwdriver, take out the chrome screw at the front top and there's a tiny screw inside that hole. That's where the adjustment come in. It took all of five minutes to fix it. All that was courtesy of Youxin Ye instructions via email.

georg16nik · Jan 14, 2016

The time lag for typical focal plane Leica type shutter is about 10 milliseconds for Barnacks and ~ 10 - 20 milliseconds for most M's, 12 milliseconds for M7.
A typical time lag for mechanical or hybrid SLR is ~ 150 milliseconds; whereas Nikon F5/F6 improved that to 40 - 45 milliseconds.

Touché!

film_man · Jan 14, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
It is all about knowing how to use the camera.

Exactly. Which is why a rangefinder is some people's preference. If you know how to use one then you get a nice 35mm camera that is quiet and very nice to use, faster to focus especially in the dark, has zero blackout and even lets you see outside the frame.

Ko.Fe. · Jan 14, 2016

Sirius Glass said:
With the slr mirror black out I can take one frame per jump and get perfection. It is all about knowing how to use the camera. I have not had a need to spray photographs period. Spraying as part of dust abatement while offroading and voiding a bladder is one good use for spraying. Also paint a wall or a car with paint, but in photography spraying is a crutch for the inexperienced.

You ain't gettin it.
I can't master my SLR skills as good as you. I took 100K frames with SLR systems, sports included and I still can't nail it as easily as with RF.

With SLR in my example you have to be experienced, gifted and else, with RF all you have to do is to take the picture, no matter if you are photo guru, Camel trophy veteran, urologist or construction, automotive painter.
In other words in my example inexperienced in photography person will have better success rate with RF vs SLR.

Back to OP, if AE is only the reason, FM3a is way better choice. It was really nothing else to say here right at very beginning.

Cheers, Ko.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 14, 2016

Richard S. (rich815) said:
Yup. Agree. And an FM3a because it's an SLR.

It's really about which you prefer for your personal style of photography, and subjectively why.

Yes and I like to see what the lens sees.

flavio81 · Jan 14, 2016

georg16nik said:
The time lag for typical focal plane Leica type shutter is about 10 milliseconds for Barnacks and ~ 10 - 20 milliseconds for most M's, 12 milliseconds for M7.
A typical time lag for mechanical or hybrid SLR is ~ 150 milliseconds; whereas Nikon F5/F6 improved that to 40 - 45 milliseconds.!

Source of your figures?

I had a book dedicated to camera technology and the figures were much lower for SLRs; while a Minox GT was the fastest (i think it was 2msec)

georg16nik · Jan 14, 2016

Decades personal experience for one, RF, SLR, etc..
LFM Fall-Winter 1953 - THE LEICA FOCAL PLANE SHUTTER by H. Freiik, Welziar, Germany;
Also, a bit extensive table here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shutter_lag

frank · Jan 14, 2016

Les Sarile said:
Love is unconditional so you should not have to justify it . . .

Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!

Also, I choose not to spend $600 on an FM3a when I can get a plain FM for $50.

Sean Mac · Jan 14, 2016

Average human reaction time, 250+ms. www.humanbenchmark.com/

A 20ms difference seems insignificant on that basis

georg16nik · Jan 14, 2016

Sean Mac said:
Average human reaction time, 250+ms. www.humanbenchmark.com/

A 20ms difference seems insignificant on that basis

Right, 250+ms, completely irrelevant to film cameras.

You talk computer interface, network latency, etc, timings here or film camera shutters?

Or you just want to say something?

Theo Sulphate · Jan 14, 2016

georg16nik said:
Right, 250+ms, completely irrelevant to film cameras.

You talk computer interface, network latency, etc, timings here or film camera shutters?

Not irrelevant at all and it has nothing to do with effing computers or networks.

What he's saying is that on average 250ms elapses between the time your brain says "press the shutter release" and your finger actually presses the release.

Sean Mac · Jan 14, 2016

georg16nik Or you just want to say something?[/QUOTE said:
Politeness costs nothing.

Is English your first language?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_chronometry

Xmas · Jan 14, 2016

Theo Sulphate said:
Not irrelevant at all and it has nothing to do with effing computers or networks.

What he's saying is that on average 250ms elapses between the time your brain says "press the shutter release" and your finger actually presses the release.

Well I view it slightly different and use 330 ms as a benchmark.
When you look at something mobile like a hand moving your brains perception of it is 330 ms seconds later.
You need to anticipate 1/3 of a second earlier what the subject is going to do.
The delay is dependent on fatigue, individual, etc.

Sean Mac · Jan 14, 2016

Xmas said:
Well I view it slightly different and use 330 ms as a benchmark.
When you look at something mobile like a hand moving your brains perception of it is 330 ms seconds later.
You need to anticipate 1/3 of a second earlier what the subject is going to do.
The delay is dependent on fatigue, individual, etc.

Thank you.

The specious notion that shutter mechanics are relevant falls apart when examined.

Cognitive anticipation is a requirement for a dynamic subject.

Some practice is helpful...

Sirius Glass · Jan 14, 2016

georg16nik said:
Right, 250+ms, completely irrelevant to film cameras.

You talk computer interface, network latency, etc, timings here or film camera shutters?

Or you just want to say something?

That applies to someone driving a car or truck down the road and suddenly seeing a ball land on the road. It does not apply to a photographer waiting to get a photograph or a hunter shooting a rifle. Before you throw around reaction time numbers you need to see what they were based on and how they were tested.

Nuff · Jan 14, 2016

Some shutter lag times. Any ms is significant. We can compensate, but if a subject appears and it's gone in ms, how an you compensate for subject which isn't there any more?

Some shutter lag times https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shutter_lag

frank · Jan 14, 2016

Depending on your subject matter, shutter lag can be a very salient specification in a camera.

georg16nik · Jan 15, 2016

Sean Mac said:
...

Politeness costs nothing.

...

Being polite with forum trolls? :munch:

Sean Mac said:
....

The specious notion that shutter mechanics are relevant falls apart when examined.

....

Yeah, sure, if you are a kid who toke up photography 1 year ago.
Gee, the amateurish levels on APUG are quite entertaining but why join a thread about specific cameras when you've never used such cameras or at least familiar with their internal specifics? I am pretty sure 99% of the participant never ever held M7 or FM3a in their hands or shot with it...

So long fellas, I am done with this thread.

Xmas · Jan 15, 2016

I've had one M and a FM in pieces it takes practice to get a Champagne cork at a wedding.

Theo Sulphate · Jan 15, 2016

...and either a lot of weddings or a lot of champagne

DREW WILEY · Jan 15, 2016

I don't give a damn about "shutter lag time". My stiff arthritic fingers are the great equalizer. But I do get what I want. People who are used
to rangefinders swear by them, probably because they're used to them. They seem clumsy to me, cause I'm used to SLR's. Familiarity with
your gear, and its mechanical reliability in general, are a lot more important than the brand logo on your camera bag.

flavio81 · Jan 15, 2016

RalphLambrecht said:
Yes and I like to see what the lens sees.

Me too. Helps me a lot, considering that film and processing is not so cheap nowadays.

chuck94022 · Feb 2, 2016

Shutter lag time only matters if 1) you are unfamiliar with your camera, or 2) you are using autofocus and the lag is unpredictable.

Lag is measured as instantaneous reaction to a stimulus. If you are comfortable with your camera, and you are anticipating movement in the viewfinder (rf or SLR), your finger is adding pressure as the decisive moment approaches. Lag isn't the factor any more - skill is. Unless you have an autofocus camera. Then at the decisive moment, <urp> no click! the damn camera didn't focus! Or you had it set to shutter priority, and <urp> no focus! the damn camera didn't focus!

Unless you don't know your camera. Then, the decisive moment approaches, and <urp> c'mon, click already!

I have RF, SLR, and GG cameras, and love 'em all. I do appreciate the quiet of an RF, especially in candid street photography. I love through the lens too. And then there's the ground glass. No one here has yet mentioned the wonder of the glass, under the dark cloth...

flavio81 · Feb 2, 2016

chuck94022 said:
Shutter lag time only matters if 1) you are unfamiliar with your camera, or 2) you are using autofocus and the lag is unpredictable.

That's what I thought until I tried to take pictures of F1 cars. Lag does matter in some cases.

Nikon FM3a vs Leica M7

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