Nikon FE self fires . . . ?

[jimgalli]

At least every other time it's cocked. If I give it a sideways jiggle between cocking it will usually catch. Anyone have an exploded parts diagram and can tell me where the "catch" is that isn't catching. Lazy spring? Broken spring? It's a nice old thing and the meter works, just the weird self firing problem. Erratic. Upside down it almost never catches when cocked. The makes me believe it's likely a broken or lazy hair spring on a pall that is supposed to catch when it's wound. Anyone?

Is there a Nikon FE / FM group?? It's basically worthless. Not worth paying someone to repair it if I can't do it. But they're such lovely old machines. I really want to fix it if I can. Thanks.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

FE & FE2 repair manual: https://learncamerarepair.com/product.php?product=253&category=2&secondary=8

FWIW - often the problem is in the mechanism under the baseplate. I think there is a video on fixing this sort of problem somewhere on YouTube.

 

[BrianShaw]

Yup... worthless. I'll take it off of your hands.

 

[jimgalli]

Thanks for the link.

 

[jimgalli]

Yup... worthless. I'll take it off of your hands.

I have $62.59 invested plus a days fiddling. My time is worthless I suppose. It’s a lovely old thing……if it works. And I guess since I’m usually wasting thousands on LF stuff the Nikon seems a trifle. It CC was jammed fast when it came so there’s progress

 

[BrianShaw]

I love the FE. It’s a lovely camera.

in the repair manual, Figure 14, check that part 462 isn’t stuck. That part latches as the final act of the cock-charge cycle. It’s buried so be careful.

 

[jimgalli]

I love the FE. It’s a lovely camera.

in the repair manual, Figure 14, check that part 462 isn’t stuck. That part latches as the final act of the cock-charge cycle. It’s buried so be careful.

Thanks for that. Sounds promising. I appreciate it. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[Down Under]

A self-firing camera?? This must be worth money...

Okay, bad joke. Mine (on Nikon F, the rest Nikkormats) in their time have on occasion done the opposite, usually refusing to fire at all until (expensively) repaired.

Please keep us posted. A detailed post on how this was fixed will surely be of interest to many. Bonne chance!!

 

[RDW]

Does it happen on M90 and B, or just the electronic speeds?

 

[jimgalli]

Does it happen on M90 and B, or just the electronic speeds?

Yes, on M90 it will self fire. Also over night it's gotten pretty consistent about self firing every other time it's wound. So one time it catches and works properly on any setting, and the next wind it will self fire, then next it works again and next is self fires. On B setting it catches and works properly almost every time. Right now it's every time on B. Does what it's supposed to do. Shutter stays open for as long as I hold the button.

On all of the timed settings, even when it self fires, it adheres to the time selected. 1/2 sec is 1/2 sec. On Auto it chooses a believable time and fires at that time. But the problem is consistent everywhere but B It self fires every other time.

Also for those curious, I found the part that Brian pointed out and gave it a flush with some Tri-chloroethane on a q tip with the screw slightly loosed to allow a good clean everywhere and that didn't change anything.

I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling about this one.

 

[jimgalli]

I made a youtube if that helps anyone trying to help me

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Well, it sounds like the problem is not electronic - which is good news. The way I understand the FE (note - it's not a heck of a lot of understanding) the shutter button mechanically gets the mirror rising and the aperture closing. The mirror mechanism then starts the first curtain and signals the electronics. The electronics times the release of the second curtain and starts it going by pulsing a solenoid in the shutter.

Does the problem change if you don't have a lens on the camera or if you mount a different lens?

I would trace the path from the shutter release to the mirror mechanism - somewhere in that chain something isn't getting reliably reset. I believe that path goes through the base mechanism. See if you can identify all the parts that move when the shutter is fired. Look for ones that are in different positions when the shutter self fires and when it fires from the shutter button.

I see from the video that the shutter is also hanging - where you can't release the shutter or wind the film because that infamous lever in the base sticks in the wrong position. I hate to recommend this, but the famous DIY fix is to spritz the baseplate mechanism with a generous amount of lighter fluid while exercising the camera. You may need to repeat. It's not a great fix but it may get things going again and it avoids the danger of taking things apart and losing springs and screws and ball bearings. I don't know if the service manual shows the lubrication points, if it does then Mobil 1 5W-x (or some other low W number) makes for a very good clock oil for lubricating mechanisms like this: excellent film strength, positively won't gum up over the years. The mechanism can also run dry for a very long time.

The self-release problem may, however, be in the mirror box - which is a PITA to get to. OTOH, it may be in the base and the lighter fluid 'oil change' may fix it.

 

[RDW]

Not a fix, but a similar problem with a comment from well-known technician Gus Lazzari:
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threa...nt-shutter-release-after-film-advance.505350/

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Looking at the video again, it looks like the shutter releases on the back stroke of the wind lever.

Does the problem go away if you slowly bring the wind lever back to the rest position? Does it go away if you wind the camera slowly?

 

[jimgalli]

Looking at the video again, it looks like the shutter releases on the back stroke of the wind lever.

Does the problem go away if you slowly bring the wind lever back to the rest position? Does it go away if you wind the camera slowly?

No. The slower on the way back to rest tends to cause the jam at the bottom. Mirror goes up but shutter doesn’t cycle and then it’s a jam up.
Been cleaning cleaning cleaning including the mirror axle area. Now it’s gotten even stranger. With no lens on you can wind and fire a 100X reliably. But screw a lens on and it’s right back to every other wind. Even with the ai tab up so the lens is basically doing nothing….it goes wacko soon as a lens is in the bayonet.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

With no lens on you can wind and fire a 100X reliably.

That pretty much says the problem is in the mirror box mechanism. Bit of a bummer, that.

The problem is probably the force needed to open the lens up after taking a picture is overpowering the camera's aperture control mechanism and so the mirror box/shutter release isn't reset after the exposure. The AI tab will have nothing to do with it.

Does it work with some other lens? One that opens with less force on the aperture control lever? Again, that's not a fix but it does restore some function to the camera.

If it were my camera ... hmmm, not sure what I'd do. Probably start with exercising it without a lens seeing if I could get the gummed up lubricant to migrate out of the mechanism. If that fails (or, as is likely, makes matters worse), and what is left is selling on ebay as 'parts only' then I might try squirting lighter fluid into any openings in the mirror box - that's pretty drastic, but if it doesn't work I could still sell it as a parts camera. If I were feeling really adventurous I might try taking the mirror box out (work on a large fluffy white towel to catch parts that go sproing).

The occasional camera jams are a baseplate issue that is separate from the self-fire issue. Lots of YouTube videos on fixing it. 'Slow' something-or-other.

 

[jimgalli]

News this AM. Thanks so much to RDW and Nicholas Lindan for getting me focused on the problem area, the mirror catch mech. Here is my hack fix; I put some WD40 in a syringe and lubed what I could get to in the mirror area with the mirror up and then cycled a few times. I know, hold your vomit. Then I flushed with some tri-chloroethane. Lubed it then washed out most of the gross yuck. Now it's working sweetly and has become a useful camera after only 2 days of working on it, and it's worth about what I paid for it! One small idiosyncrasy left which I do not plan to address. The counter usually stops ratcheting forward around number 28. Typically I wind about 25 shots from a long roll, so it won't affect me at all, but could annoy a future owner some day.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

The WD-40 may be bad news - it will gum up in less than a year. If you flushed it out with tri-chlor then all should be OK. Other good flush-outs are CRC contact cleaner and BrakClean, the later being very (and I mean very) active. As I mentioned before, Mobil 1 is a very good small mechanism lubricant.

 

[jimgalli]

It should be very nearly clean dry metal against metal after my flush. But I do have some 0-20 Mobil 1 around here that we use in the wife's Nissan (another disaster! Don't buy anything with a CVT transmission! $4700 repair this summer) and I'll put some of that in a syringe for future light machine oil needs.

 

[jimgalli]

Addenda: This little booger really wants to be in the scrap Nikon pile I guess. It's working hard to get there. So I figured it was good to go and I put some of my Aerial Recon plus X 3404 in it to waste 25 shots and see how it does. And on a bright Nevada afternoon I set it at 125 ASA and set the aperture to f16 and it's a full 3 stops over-exposed from Sunny 16 rule. I grabbed my other FE and with similar focal length looking at the same scene it's calling for 1/80th which is believable for an oxidized green antique truck. 2/3 stop open from sunny 16. The one in question is at 1/10th. 3 stops. If I lie to the ASA dial and set it at 1000 speed film the 2 cameras call for the same exposure. Junk it and move on?

 

[Horatio]

Before trashing it, I would set it to Auto and see what shutter speeds the meter is choosing when you change the aperture.

 

[BrianShaw]

As painful as it will be (and as painful as it is for me to write this): it might be time to scrap it.

 

[jimgalli]

As a last effort before I give up I opened both Nikon FE's to compare the two potentiometers to see if something was obviously out of place, assembled wrongly, if that is even possible. Nope, they look identical. But they are 2 2/3 stops apart. The proven one that I have been using as a benchmark compared to the one I worked on. If I put identical 50mm lenses on both cameras and put them on a twin camera platform looking at the identical scene, I can get identical results in the "Auto" setting if I set the good meter at 125 ASA and the bad meter at 800 ASA. So it's usable as a backup with that caveat. But that's a rather huge caveat.

 

[BrianShaw]

Wow, there’s a lot going on with that camera.

 

[Down Under]

I now recall... I had a Nikkormat EL that did this, way back in the early '00s. Most annoying, it was.

I took it to my then (now retired, and I do miss him) repair person in Melbourne, who fiddled with it for a bit and then pronounced it to be unfixable - said it would cost too much, and even then being fully electronical (is this a word? I hope) it would likely as not break down again in very short order.

So I took it home and put it away. Ten years later I found it in its box, resting quietly in peace. Took out the battery (I had left it in, silly me, but it still worked, ha!) and cleaned the innards with a cotton bud and a drop or two of methylated spirit. Let it dry, put in the battery, and boom!! it worked again.

Has worked consistently since. I sold it last December to someone who as long ago as last month (August '21) was still using it and very happy with it, all working spot-on. A 46-year old electronic camera, imagine!!

I also have a Contax G1 that developed an autorewind problem, in 2004. Which also fixed itself after about 18 months of having to manually rewind my films using a toothpick, a long and involved story (not what many will think). But then a G1 isn't a Nikon or a Nikkormat, so I'll say no more about it. For now.

Anecdotal? Yes, definitely. But miracles can/do happen.

I do wish I could have accessed this thread back then. So many useful hints and tips. But then I've never, ever opened up a camera to tinker with it, and I never will. My camera repair person made a small fortune out of me...