Nikon F6 - old vs new

[Henning Serger]

I think Nikon only made the F6 in one production run and keep selling those until today.

That is completely wrong and has nothing to do with reality. There have been several reports from photo magazines (e.g. Chasseur d'Image) which have visited the Nikon factory in Sendai in which all professional Nikon cameras (and also prof. flashes) are made, including the F6. All these reporters have seen and confirmed a current, ongoing small scale production of the F6.
Such a production is also typical for the high-end digital professional Nikons, because of the very high price of these cameras and the short production cycles these cameras are also built only in relative small quantities.
The whole production organisation in the Sendai factory is focussed on flexibility and efficient small(er) scale production. For example from the Nikon D2h only about 7,000 units have been built. F6: More than 35,000 so far.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[rmjranch]

Why did you wait 6 weeks for delivery if you could order from B&H in stock?

 

[Henning Serger]

If i may ask.....
1. Why pay this much for a 35mm film camera.? Is it for auto focus, or maybe a spot meter.?

You get an excellent price-performance ratio, even if you buy it new.
Price is what you pay, value is what you get.
I look at it this way:
Nikon has demonstrated over the decades that their top professional F cameras are working for decades if you take a bit care and don't brutally abuse them. So my F6s will most probably serve me very well for about 35-40 years, maybe even a bit longer.
So about 2,000 -2,200€ (with MB-40 vertical grip) for such a long time: that's nothing!!
That are only some Euros each year for excellent cameras I am shooting dozen of rolls each year. So camera costs are negligible.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Why did you wait 6 weeks for delivery if you could order from B&H in stock?

I am living in Germany. And the price here was much lower than B&H. And I supported a local dealer I've been always very satiesfied with.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[RattyMouse]

Why did you wait 6 weeks for delivery if you could order from B&H in stock?

Why would ANYONE pay full price and buy a new F6 when you can get mint used ones for huge discounts. There's no reason to buy a new F6 from Nikon.

 

[Henning Serger]

What makes it easier to focus than any other 35mm SLR.?

The F6 fokus (with focus assist) is more precise than my Nikon FM split-image focussing aid for example.
I often use my F6 with manual focus with my manual Nikkors and Zeiss ZF lenses.
The viewfinder is also much better than that of the FM.
And having matrix metering with manual lenses is also very fine.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[CMoore]

The F6 fokus (with focus assist) is more precise than my Nikon FM split-image focussing aid for example.
I often use my F6 with manual focus with my manual Nikkors and Zeiss ZF lenses.
The viewfinder is also much better than that of the FM.
And having matrix metering with manual lenses is also very fine.

Best regards,
Henning

I usually do not pay attention what camera another photographer is using, and i rarely see somebody with a 35mm film camera, but.......i will have to keep a look out.
Just out of curiosity, If i ever see somebody with an F6, i will (ask them if i can) take a look and see how that works.
Thank You

 

[tom43]

Seems that the F6 is still in production, nevertheless it is very likely that many components were produced at once. Let´s hope that the storage is large enough to fullfill the low demands for the next years. Unfortunately the arrival of the new E class lenses speaks another language as does the decline of available film types...a new F7 we potentially can rule out.

The F6 is/was a very good camera, but there was always the feeling that the film size did´nt do justice to the engineering efforts which are for sure within this body. An F6 with medium size image quality would have been a dream machine.

If I go for 35mm today, most time I prefer my F80S (N80 with film imprint), which delivers 90% of the F6 in a much more compact and lightweight environment. For large prints and high quality output I would take a medium format system or a high-res FF digital system like the D810.

 

[Henning Serger]

Not to drift off-topic, but I've been curious about this for some time. When the F5 first came out, I was simply blown away by its capabilities. I mean its AF abilities alone are capable of tracking just about anything you can imagine. And the metering system was just mind-boggling. So, what I'm wondering is, what could Nikon have possibly done with the F6 to improve on the F5? And are these improvements significant?

Yes, they are significant. The F6 is much improved in comparison to the F5 in more than 20 aspects / technical details.
Nikon has listened very attentively to the professionals who had given their feedback on the F5 and wanted improvements.
Just to list a few of the advantages of the F6:
- much better ergonomics (the F6 is ergonomically the best camera I've ever used, perfect design)
- vertical grip is removable, better flexibility
- improved AF-system
- improved metering
- improved viewfinder (better information lay-out)
- i-TTL flash system (outstanding)
- less vibrations (almost vibration-free)
- less noise: You don't hear the film motor at all when shooting
- improved exposure data recording (full EXIF data) with data reader Nikon MV-1 (or the new Meta35)
- excellent info on the back LCD
- data back integrated in the camera, no extra costs for buying one
- film leader out is in the custom settings.

For more advantages, you may have a look here:
http://www.filmbodies.com/cameras/camera-reviews/nikon-f6-review.html

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Why would ANYONE pay full price and buy a new F6 when you can get mint used ones for huge discounts. There's no reason to buy a new F6 from Nikon.

I've bought my F6s new because I wanted 100% safety to have perfect working cameras (and a 3 year guarantee). With used ones you never know which abuse the camera has got.
I've bought all my film Nikons new. And I have never had any issues with them.
I've bought my medium format cameras used (because they were not available new anymore). I've had issues with all of them, all needed repairs.

And I've done my part to support film camera manufacturing. I've supported the infrastructure we need as film photographers.
If all would refuse buying new film cameras, and only would want used ones, well.......then no one could ever take a single picture because no cameras would have been built.
Without film camera production, no film pictures.

And from my long experience here on apug I know: Those who have bashed me here for buying new F6s (I've got this bashing several times in the past), will be the first ones who are complaining when Nikon, Leica or others may stop production of one or more film models in the future.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[blockend]

If I go for 35mm today, most time I prefer my F80S (N80 with film imprint), which delivers 90% of the F6 in a much more compact and lightweight environment. For large prints and high quality output I would take a medium format system or a high-res FF digital system like the D810.

That seems fairly typical. Although I got flamed in the F5 thread for suggesting such a thing, I believe most of the people who bought late model professional SLRs for their technological capabilities have moved on to D-cameras. Even the F6 is 12 year old tech, which is light years in a rapidly evolving environment. These cameras were designed to increase the hit rate for people who had to get the shot in high stress environments like sports and journalism, and their evolving autofocus speeds, metering and frame rates offered improvements from one iteration to the next. Anyone outside those situations probably has different criteria and doesn't require the same technology.

Some people like to misread statements as a personal attack on their baby, which is not my intention, but as you say for photographic purposes there are numerous attributes that have nothing whatsoever to do with technological progress, or people wouldn't still be carrying old folding cameras or Barnack Leicas. The F6 is one of very few Nikons I've never tried, and I'm sure it's a peach. I'm equally sure there are pros somewhere out there who may still require what the F6 delivers, but I'm guessing most users are nostalgists who want the last word in 35mm camera technology just because they can.
It's interesting to think what 2016 technology could do for professional 35mm cameras, though difficult to see frame rates as a deal breaker - who needs to squirt a roll in three and a half seconds when a D-camera will just keep firing? Digital preview would be a great aid to exposure, but I think Nikon are more likely to re-release their old rangefinders or a Nikon F than an F7.

 

[Henning Serger]

...a new F7 we potentially can rule out.

In the short and mid term, probably yes. In the long term, I would not be surprised to see a F6x or F7. Because the digital camera market is collapsing. Even much faster then the pessimists thougt. This year the total sales volume of digital cameras will be about 30% less than film camera sales at the end of the 90ies. In 3-4 years it will be less than 50%. Digital camera production is in a severe crisis. Alternative niches will become more important in the next years for camera manufacturers.
Just look at Instax: 5,5 million cameras sold last year. More than any digital camera type.
If the film revival gets stronger in the next years, the chance to see new film cameras is increasing.

The F6 is/was a very good camera, but there was always the feeling that the film size did´nt do justice to the engineering efforts which are for sure within this body. An F6 with medium size image quality would have been a dream machine.

If I go for 35mm today, most time I prefer my F80S (N80 with film imprint), which delivers 90% of the F6 in a much more compact and lightweight environment. For large prints and high quality output I would take a medium format system or a high-res FF digital system like the D810.

I have to disagree: With reversal film and projection I get a much much better quality with 35mm film than with any digital camera. Because the imaging chain with film is much better than the digital imaging chain (digital projectors with their extremely low resolution and inferior colour fidelity are the bottleneck).
And there are lots of films (mainly colour reversal and BW negative) which are outresolving the D810 sensor at medium and higher object contrasts (I did all these tests in my optical test lab; results have currently been published in the film photography print magazine PhotoKlassik).
And high resolution BW films like Agfa Copex Rapid and Adox CMS 20 II are a league of its own.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

It's interesting to think what 2016 technology could do for professional 35mm cameras, though difficult to see frame rates as a deal breaker - who needs to squirt a roll in three and a half seconds when a D-camera will just keep firing?

There is much much much more important with F6 capabilities than frame rate.
Just two years ago I made a personal experiment for me shooting my F6 and FM side by side in a portrait / fashion shoot outdoors (summer, very sunny day).
Keeper rate with the F6: About 100%
Keeper rate with the FM: About 50%.
The F6 won because of better focussing, much faster shutter speeds (better background isolation with wider opened apertures possible), outstanding fill-in flash capability, built in motor, better ergonomics.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[blockend]

If the film revival gets stronger in the next years, the chance to see new film cameras is increasing.

That is undoubtedly true, but I don't believe those cameras will be hi-tech SLRs. Leica have shown film cameras of low or no electronic technology will sell, so long as the engineering standards are fine. It's difficult to see what an F7 could offer unless it was some kind of hybrid technology, and the implementation of that would be problematic. It's possible to imagine various cameras selling out a limited edition, an Olympus Pen F half frame for example, or a Canon rangefinder or a medium format folding rangefinder. Still can't see a new professional 35mm SLR.

 

[CMoore]

The digital camera market is collapsing.?
Is there any qualifier with that statement.?.......Digital SLR perhaps.?
I do not think there is much demand for a new film camera...and i mean "new" as in not now in production.
I could be wrong, but i think if Nikon offered the choice, they would sell Many More new F2 than new F6.
My newest Nikon is an F3, my newest Canon is an F-1 New.
I do not think (again, i could be wrong) that "most" of us "film guys" particularly need or want circa 2015 technology. That is one reason we still use a film camera.

 

[blockend]

There is much much much more important with F6 capabilities than frame rate.
Just two years ago I made a personal experiment for me shooting my F6 and FM side by side in a portrait / fashion shoot outdoors (summer, very sunny day).
Keeper rate with the F6: About 100%
Keeper rate with the FM: About 50%.
The F6 won because of better focussing, much faster shutter speeds (better background isolation with wider opened apertures possible), outstanding fill-in flash capability, built in motor, better ergonomics.

Best regards,
Henning

That's comparing apples and oranges. A manual focus and advance camera is not going to keep up with a 2004 professional SLR, but time spent changing films means a D-camera will put both in the shade. There are some things digital does so much better, and providing numerous images at high speed is one of them, which is why people who prioritise that ability have moved on. Some users still need good AF and advance in a film camera - Araki is sometimes seen with a Pentax MZ-S - but whether there's the number to support a newly developed SLR is questionable when existing models get close enough.

 

[Henning Serger]

It's difficult to see what an F7 could offer unless it was some kind of hybrid technology, and the implementation of that would be problematic.

I think it is not so difficult to imagine how a F6x or F7 could look like:
- compatability with E lenses
- direct EXIF read out without an accessoire like the MV-1 data reader
- metering and AF system from the D5 (reducing costs, no new development needed).

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

The digital camera market is collapsing.?
Is there any qualifier with that statement.?

Of course.
Just look at the official sales numbers:
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html
It is one of the main topics in the industry for quite some time.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

That's comparing apples and oranges.

I don't think so. As a film photographer I have my subjects and I need certain camera capabilities to get best results. And in my case I get the best results with the most advanced film camera technology. That is why I am using it: much higher keeper rate.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[blockend]

I don't think so. As a film photographer I have my subjects and I need certain camera capabilities to get best results. And in my case I get the best results with the most advanced film camera technology. That is why I am using it: much higher keeper rate.

Best regards,
Henning

That's clearly the case, but are there enough people like you to support a new professional 35mm SLR camera? It sounds a risky venture when Nikon can simply dig out their old F2 plans and produce a brand new plain prism black model with a certificate and a custom leather strap, and sell every one they can make. Most won't leave their beautiful purple velvet boxes of course, but that's where the cash is in 2016 film cameras.

 

[Pioneer]

I've bought my F6s new because I wanted 100% safety to have perfect working cameras (and a 3 year guarantee). With used ones you never know which abuse the camera has got.
I've bought all my film Nikons new. And I have never had any issues with them.
I've bought my medium format cameras used (because they were not available new anymore). I've had issues with all of them, all needed repairs.

And I've done my part to support film camera manufacturing. I've supported the infrastructure we need as film photographers.
If all would refuse buying new film cameras, and only would want used ones, well.......then no one could ever take a single picture because no cameras would have been built.
Without film camera production, no film pictures.

And from my long experience here on apug I know: Those who have bashed me here for buying new F6s (I've got this bashing several times in the past), will be the first ones who are complaining when Nikon, Leica or others may stop production of one or more film models in the future.

Best regards,
Henning

Thank you Henning.

I think that a lot of film photographers are happily oblivious to the fact that film cameras are getting older and older. When their camera breaks they just go to the great auction house on the web and buy another older camera, all the while denigrating the company for failing to build good enough equipment. For them life is full of $50 cameras that can easily be replaced. But, without new film camera production, and that will never happen without buyer support, we will all be dealing with older, and more troublesome equipment as time goes on.

Perhaps for some of us this is not an important issue, but for new photographers just starting with film, this is more important than you think. Many of us claim that we want film to continue, and that we want young people to begin enjoying the wonders of film, but without new camera production this will never have any chance of becoming a reality. A healthy, prosperous market requires new production as well as used equipment, new film as well as expired stocks. Without this it dies away.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

DSLR sales are falling rapidly, MILC (mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras) have fallen slightly.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/waiting-for-st-nick.html

Smartphones are eating into low-end digital cameras (fixed lens & fixed lens zoom). DSLR sales have fallen because most people have cameras that are "more than good enough".

New generations of digitographers will keep the MILC market alive.

Some of these people will come to film.

 

[CMoore]

I do not see many people using a film camera. Certainly not in numbers that represent "falling sales" of digital cameras.
I took these with a 40 dollar Nikon Coolpix.
From the camera they go straight (from a little card the size of a quarter) to a computer, and then to anywhere in the world.
I sure could be wrong, but i cannot imagine any great migration from That to a 40 dollar film camera that needs:
Repair
Lens
Film
Skill
Care
etc etc
In the 1960's, if my parents had access to my Nikon Coolpix, they never would have fussed with their Kodak Brownie/Instamatic.
I just do not see any reason for the bulk of society to use a film camera.......
If people want a film camera, it sure will not be 600-2000 dollar SLR.

http://i.imgur.com/3N1nixq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QE8oCRT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/R0mACF7.jpg

 

[MattKing]

The reality is that the market for cameras of all types is shrinking, with the partial exception of Instax.

People are using smart phones instead.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

...
I sure could be wrong, but i cannot imagine any great migration from That to a 40 dollar film camera that needs: ... Repair ... Lens ... Film ... Skill ... Care ... etc. ... I just do not see any reason for the bulk of society to use a film camera ... If people want a film camera, it sure will not be 600-2000 dollar SLR.
...

Well, you're right that film cameras won't ever be mainstream again. As you say, the bulk of society won't be using them.

People (like us here) buy film cameras for several reasons. One is that the process is engaging - we become involved in making the photo. Another is that we appreciate mechanical equipment or film as a medium.

I have no desire to send my photos over the internet and, if I did, my old 2011 phone's 8MP camera is good enough. Also, digital photography and postprocessing requires skill and equipment and money (SD cards, scanners, software, etc.).

I have no qualms about paying $600-$2000+ for a film camera that I think is worth it (e.g. Mamiya 7 II with a nice lens or Hasselblad 205FCC system).

Logic can't be applied to hobbies where the value is derived in personal enjoyment.