Nikon F4 or F6

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Sirius Glass

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And this "the F6 is not a professional camera because it has no interchangeable viewfinders" is just internet talk of amateurs, camera collectors and gear-heads.
But not at all talk of professionals, because they have abandoned interchangeable viewfinders decades ago. The demand for interchangeable viewfinders had been tiny and negligible, and because of that the manufacturers stopped them decades ago: Minolta was first in the 80ies, a bit later Canon followed in 1989 with their EOS 1, Pentax then a bit later and Nikon were the last in 1999 with the D1. And the others like Leica and Contax choosed the more robust fixed prism viewfinders right from the start.
Fact is that professionals are using cameras with fixed prism viewfinders successfully for several decades. Tell them that they are using "amateur" or "non-system" cameras because the viewfinder is not interchangeable.....if you have luck they will only laughing :wink:.

Best regards,
Henning

In over 60 years of using 35mm slr cameras I have never felt a the need to change the view finder. The cost versus benefit just does not pay off for most photographers, amateur or professional. In MF the there is a payoff for changing view finders because the stock view finder is a Waist Level Finder and for the Mamiya C330f the PorroFlex was the viewfinder of choice and the Hasselblad one of the 45° or 90° view finders are the view finders of choice with the advantage of built in light meter while eliminating the annoying left right reversal.
 

Huss

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Having owned and used both cameras, I will say the one outstanding feature of the F6 is its metering. It just nails exposure. Now the F4s was no slouch in this area, but the F6 is just better at nailing exposure every time. The F6 probably focuses a bit faster than the F4s. And the F6 can use all my AF-S Nikkor glass. Not sure they all work on the F4s (no longer own the F4s).

But I liked holding and shooting with the F4s better than the F6. I had the larger of the two battery grips on my F4s, and use the MB-40 on the F6. Again the F4s just fit my hands and was more comfortable for me to shoot. YMMV.

Best,
-Tim

I find the metering in the F4 to be balanced for negative film, while the F6 seems to be more into preserving highlights i.e slide film balanced.
 
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Getting the F6 will not make me forget about the F4.

Maybe not.
But getting the F4 will also not make you forgetting the F6......:wink:.
In your original post you have asked for a Nikon SLR with best AF for sports and wildlife. And that is the F6, not the F4. As someone who is using both for years I can ensure you that.

You have written that you have dreamed about having an F4 as a kid. And that you find it looks cool. Then get one! It is a no brainer currently because they are so cheap.
And because they are so cheap it is maybe also possible for you to have both, F4 and F6.

Lenses then..? Id like a midrange zoom to go with it. I suspect the 35-70mm 2.8 afd is a bit big. But what about the 35-105mm 3.5-4.5 afd? Or the 35-70mm 3.3-4.5 af?

If you need a compact, light, versatile, lower cost and quite well performing midrange zoom the AF-D 3.5-4.5/28-105 can be recommended.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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In over 60 years of using 35mm slr cameras I have never felt a the need to change the view finder. The cost versus benefit just does not pay off for most photographers, amateur or professional. In MF the there is a payoff for changing view finders because the stock view finder is a Waist Level Finder and for the Mamiya C330f the PorroFlex was the viewfinder of choice and the Hasselblad one of the 45° or 90° view finders are the view finders of choice with the advantage of built in light meter while eliminating the annoying left right reversal.

Yes.
In my post I was of course referring to 35mm cameras. In medium format the situation is different.

Best regards,
Henning
 

Arthurwg

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If it's about getting one or the other, I suggest you get both. Why not? It's only money, and photography is cheaper than yachting.

These days I use the 24mm AF-D and the 85 mm F1.4 with my F6, but I'm now thinking about the 80-200mm AF-D that I. used with great success on the F4 and might replace it. Yes, I'd rather have the 70-200 VR lens but that costs $2400.00 new at the moment.
 

MWL

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No, that was not what they said.
They said they wanted to design a real upgrade to the F5, and therefore the best film SLR they have ever built. That is the reason why the F6 is improved so much and in so many regards in comparison to the F5. Nikon wanted to make an even better camera, and they succeeded. I know for sure, because in contrast to you I am using both cameras, also for professional jobs.

People with no market knowledge have misinterpreted one statement in one interview with the F6 engineers: That Nikon expected a change in customer market share, because the market of especially press photographers had begun to switch to digital during the R&D phase.
But that is a different topic, and is not related to the fact that Nikon's R&D target / aim was to design their best film SLR ever, and a significantly improved camera compared to the F5.
Because what people who are doing this misinterpretation don't know is that all so-called "professional" cameras from all manufacturers, 35mm and medium format cameras, were mainly bought by non-professionals:
60-80% (depending on camera type and regional market) of all these professional cameras were bought by non-professionals, so by (enthusiast) amateurs.
That is the reason why these cameras could be designed and introduced to the market: The amateurs financed the R&D. The pure professional market has never been big enough for that. I am working in this industry, including market research. I have the numbers in my analysing tools.
No matter whether nikon F2, F5, Canon F1 or EOS 1V, Hasselblad 500 series, Rolleiflex TLR series or Mamiya RB / RZ 67: The biggest customer / buyer group has always been the amateurs, not the professionals. Example: I visited the orginal Franke&Heidecke / Rollei factory two times,and talked there also to the distribution and marketing experts. They told me that constantly over all the decades about 80% of their cameras were bought by non-professionals. Hasselblad confirmed that for their sales, too. Leica as well. With Nikon and Canon there has been a bit more regional differentiation, but the overall picture has been and is the same.

I know that after the introduction of the F6 lots of professional portrait and wedding, nature and travel photographers bought the F6. And Nikon of course have known that demand. That the F6 was only bought by "rich amateurs" is simply wrong. One of the numerous internet myths.



That was not their intention. Their intention was to offer the best possible film SLR to those who wanted or needed one. No matter whether for professional or amateur use. And at that time still lots of professionals were using film (when Nikon started the design phase film sales were on a global record level).
So Nikon had exactly the same intention with the F6 as they had earlier with the F, F2, F3, F4 and F5: At all time points they intended the best design they can do for all potential customers with their top F-line model.
Same did Canon with their top-line cameras.



No "system" camera? Sorry, you definitely don't know the F6. It is offering lots of system functions none of the other F cameras can offer.
And this "the F6 is not a professional camera because it has no interchangeable viewfinders" is just internet talk of amateurs, camera collectors and gear-heads.
But not at all talk of professionals, because they have abandoned interchangeable viewfinders decades ago. The demand for interchangeable viewfinders had been tiny and negligible, and because of that the manufacturers stopped them decades ago: Minolta was first in the 80ies, a bit later Canon followed in 1989 with their EOS 1, Pentax then a bit later and Nikon were the last in 1999 with the D1. And the others like Leica and Contax choosed the more robust fixed prism viewfinders right from the start.
Fact is that professionals are using cameras with fixed prism viewfinders successfully for several decades. Tell them that they are using "amateur" or "non-system" cameras because the viewfinder is not interchangeable.....if you have luck they will only laughing :wink:.

Best regards,
Henning

Sure, whatever you say.
 

CMoore

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I use the 28-105D lens as my zoom, and a 50 1.4D as a compact, fast, low light option. Because, film.
I used to use the 28-70 3.5/4.5 which also is great on film, but sold it because I also had the 28-105..
(I also use the 24 2.8D, 35 2.0D but would pick the zoom and the 50 if I could only have 2 lenses. Only 1 lens? Then the 50 1.4 cuz again film and you need the speed).

Nikon F4 w/ 28-70D and TriX:




Nikon F4 w/ 35 2.0D and Lomo Babylon 13:



Nikon F4 w/ 28-105D and TriX:




Nikon F4 w/ 50 1.4D and Fuji Superia 400:




Nikon F4 w/ 50 1.4D and TriX:

That is a fabulous shot of the Alfa mechanics.
I wonder who made their sign.......that thing is awesome.!
 

millardmt

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The elephant in the room is the propensity for the F3's, F4's & F5's LCD's to bleed. Why has no one addressed that? It's a show stopper.

Marc
 

CMoore

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The elephant in the room is the propensity for the F3's, F4's & F5's LCD's to bleed. Why has no one addressed that? It's a show stopper.

Marc
I know nothing about the Science/Longevity of LCD Screens.
Even on an F5, if it is nor problematic circa 2022, is it likely it ever will be.?
 

Sirius Glass

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The elephant in the room is the propensity for the F3's, F4's & F5's LCD's to bleed. Why has no one addressed that? It's a show stopper.

Marc

This is thoroughly address by the plethora of the absence of discussion of to F3s and F4s. The OP will not accept a camera with LCD bleed. Instead the OP will look at a newer better copy or buy the F100 or F6 and get a LCD with signs of bleeding.
 

BMbikerider

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In over 60 years of using 35mm slr cameras I have never felt a the need to change the view finder. The cost versus benefit just does not pay off for most photographers, amateur or professional. In MF the there is a payoff for changing view finders because the stock view finder is a Waist Level Finder and for the Mamiya C330f the PorroFlex was the viewfinder of choice and the Hasselblad one of the 45° or 90° view finders are the view finders of choice with the advantage of built in light meter while eliminating the annoying left right reversal.

At risk of starting a 'which is best' storm, I have for most of my photographic time always used a SLR, mostly 35mm but when I need to do something which needs that extra'edge' I fall back on 120 both twin lens and single lens reflexes. They slow you down, make you think and the quality is almost always better.

When I achieved my distinction of A.R.P.S with the Royal Photographic Society in 1993 all of my panel of images in B&W were made with either a Pentacon 6 SLR with a waist level viewfinder or a Minolta Autocord TLR. It made my task so much easier. Even if I say so myself the technical quality was a great help in allowing me to succeed.

The use of a seperate meter also helped and the reversal of view I didn't find a problem. I simply formed the composition as I saw it and if it didn't work when I went to print the negative I just reversed the negative to suit.
 
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Henning, I see you still haven't gathered enough flat spots on your head. Trying to counter nonsense with facts. Ha! Good luck.
@Henning Serger thank for your factual posts! Many of us here appreciate your contributions.

Thanks, Sal and Chris!

@OP:
If you are going for an F4, you should look for a later produced one, with a serial number above 400,000. Lots of internal improvements (it is said a 3-digit number) and "bug-fixing" were implemented in the F4 over the production years. And that was finished after 400,000 units were produced, no more refinements after that.
I have also such a late unit and so far - knock on wood - it works flawlessly.

Best regards,
Henning
 

MWL

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Thanks, Sal and Chris!

@OP:
If you are going for an F4, you should look for a later produced one, with a serial number above 400,000. Lots of internal improvements (it is said a 3-digit number) and "bug-fixing" were implemented in the F4 over the production years. And that was finished after 400,000 units were produced, no more refinements after that.
I have also such a late unit and so far - knock on wood - it works flawlessly.

Best regards,
Henning

That is incorrect. There is no Nikon F4 with a serial number above 261xxxx. There are no known F4 cameras with a serial number starting with 262xxxx.

All of the revisions, about 10 known ones, were done by about serial number 2500765, but just to be certain, stick with about 2501000 and up just to be safe.

Having said that, buyers should be careful, as some units are mixed and matched. Even if a body has a later serial number, you should still look for the pin hole on the flash mount of the DP-20 and Ni-Cd instead of KR-AA marked on the MB-21, if buying an F4s. Also, check for LCD bleeds on the lower LCD, but also the upper one. Bleeds generally get worse, but I have seen a report of one bleed disappear completely with a change of weather.
 
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That is incorrect. There is no Nikon F4 with a serial number above 261xxxx. There are no known F4 cameras with a serial number starting with 262xxxx.

Well, I was of course referring to the real production numbers: You have to "delete" the first code number (2), and then you have the real production number.

All of the revisions, about 10 known ones, were done by about serial number 2500765, but just to be certain, stick with about 2501000 and up just to be safe.

My sources say otherwise, including the Nikon literature (Peterson; Stafford/Hillebrand/Hauschild). Both concerning the number of modifications / improvements, and the serial numbers.

Best regards,
Henning
 

MWL

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Well, I was of course referring to the real production numbers: You have to "delete" the first code number (2), and then you have the real production number.

Stop making excuses. You wrote, and I quote "serial number above 400,000". You said nothing about "real production number". You are also wrong about subtracting the first code number to get the real production number. The F4 numbers start at 2100000, so you'd be out by 100 000 if you did that. Also, how is someone buying their first F4, with no real knowledge, supposed to know what you mean? They will go looking for "serial numbers" that don't exist.


My sources say otherwise, including the Nikon literature (Peterson; Stafford/Hillebrand/Hauschild). Both concerning the number of modifications / improvements, and the serial numbers.

I have several F4 bodies starting at 25048xx going through 26123xx, and all have the modifications. Show me where there are serial numbers above the 261xxxx, or unmodified bodies earlier than 250xxxx with all the upgrades. Peterson lists some early upgrades, while Pietsch lists some later ones, as does Ang. There are no other updates seen after serial number 2500764.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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"Stop making excuses."
It isn't an excuse at all, as the coded number does not give you the real number of units produced in case of the F4 (it is e.g. different with the F6, as the F6 numbers are not coded).
I am interested in the real produced numbers, and it is also the critical point here concerning the modifications.

"The F4 numbers start at 2100000, so you'd be out by 100 000 if you did that."
No, due to the Nikon Compendium by Stafford, Hillebrand and Hauschild the serial numbers started with 2000201. And it is confirmed by Peterson in his book that the numbers definitely started lower / under 2100000, as he wrotes that implementing of the first modifications started with 2100000 onwards.

"I have several F4 bodies starting at 25048xx going through 26123xx, and all have the modifications. Show me where there are serial numbers above the 261xxxx, or unmodified bodies earlier than 250xxxx with all the upgrades."
???
Of course your F4s with these numbers have all the upgrades, that is what I have written. Implementation of modifications was finished most probably after 2400000 or latest at 4500000 (due to one source).

Best regards,
Henning
 

MWL

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"Stop making excuses."
It isn't an excuse at all, as the coded number does not give you the real number of units produced in case of the F4 (it is e.g. different with the F6, as the F6 numbers are not coded).
I am interested in the real produced numbers, and it is also the critical point here concerning the modifications.

"The F4 numbers start at 2100000, so you'd be out by 100 000 if you did that."
No, due to the Nikon Compendium by Stafford, Hillebrand and Hauschild the serial numbers started with 2000201. And it is confirmed by Peterson in his book that the numbers definitely started lower / under 2100000, as he wrotes that implementing of the first modifications started with 2100000 onwards.

"I have several F4 bodies starting at 25048xx going through 26123xx, and all have the modifications. Show me where there are serial numbers above the 261xxxx, or unmodified bodies earlier than 250xxxx with all the upgrades."
???
Of course your F4s with these numbers have all the upgrades, that is what I have written. Implementation of modifications was finished most probably after 2400000 or latest at 4500000 (due to one source).

Best regards,
Henning

You told the OP to look for a SERIAL NUMBER above 400000. They aren't going to find one, because they don't exist.

Also, according to the latest information (from the actual owner, I believe) F4 with SERIAL NUMBER 2500764 does not have all the modifications, so SERIAL NUMBERS below that probably don't either. Therefore, cameras with SERIAL NUMBERS between 2400000 and 2500000 are probably not a good bet if you want all the latest modifications. Best to stick with a few above that number at least.

I have also seen mixed and matched units with early SERIAL NUMBERS but with later MB-20s, MB-23s and DP-20s attached, and vice versa, which were unlikely made like that by Nikon, and more likely done by unscrupulous sellers, or where bleeding LCDs necessitated a new viewfinder, or damage to the grip, either externally or internally from leaking batteries, required a new grip.
 
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Also, according to the latest information (from the actual owner, I believe) F4 with SERIAL NUMBER 2500764 does not have all the modifications, so SERIAL NUMBERS below that probably don't either.

I doubt that, as my industry sources have been absolutely reliable so far. More likely that the owner isn't aware of all modifications, of which lots were internal and cannot be seen from the outside.

Best regards,
Henning
 

MWL

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I doubt that, as my industry sources have been absolutely reliable so far. More likely that the owner isn't aware of all modifications, of which lots were internal and cannot be seen from the outside.

Best regards,
Henning

The actual owner probably sn't blind, and nor does he have x-ray vision, which means that he is only referring to the visible external upgrades, which he apparently can see he doesn't have, such as the finder release button, painted markings and protrusion of some buttons. Those are all on the body, which would rule out the finder or grips being changed.
 
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Well, please don't take it personal, but as my industry sources have been reliable so far over years, I trust them more than statements from anonymous people on the internet. That does not mean that my sources generally can't be wrong, but so far they have not given me any reason to doubt them.
Back to the original topic now........

Best regards,
Henning
 

Craig75

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Op was probably innocently thinking - just get a 35mm slr to complement my baller rangefinder and medium format cameras. Just a nice nikon slr.. that won't be like the the hellish vortex of going leica shopping... just a nice nikon slr to take restful photos of animals and the occasional game of handball..
 

Arthurwg

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Op was probably innocently thinking - just get a 35mm slr to complement my baller rangefinder and medium format cameras. Just a nice nikon slr.. that won't be like the the hellish vortex of going leica shopping... just a nice nikon slr to take restful photos of animals and the occasional game of handball..


Photography, and cameras, can drive you crazy.
 
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