Nikon F4 Film Take-up Spindle

[fdonadio]

I was gifted a Nikon F4 that was supposedly broken and, in a way, it is.

The film take up spindle is missing all its “teeth”, which makes it impossible to load film into the camera.

Does anyone have any insights about how this came to happen? Should I assume there are other broken parts that may have caused this? Is the spindle too hard to replace? Does anyone have this part?

I always dreamed of having an F4 and, given how difficult is to find one here, I wanted to get this one fixed — as long as it doesn’t cost me more than the camera is “worth” (the price it’s sold around here when available).

Any help is appreciated.


Cheers,
Flavio

 

[shutterfinger]

Download the instruction manual from my google drive https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Zccpg3z3UsI5H7mKxliicZOCblbAxMr4/view?usp=sharing
Install fresh batteries in the camera then read and follow the film loading instructions in the manual.
There is an Orange marker to position the leader at before closing the back, mine does not load unless the leader is at the center to right edge of the marker.
The takeup does not have sprocket teeth.

 

[fdonadio]

Download the instruction manual from my google drive https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Zccpg3z3UsI5H7mKxliicZOCblbAxMr4/view?usp=sharing
Install fresh batteries in the camera then read and follow the film loading instructions in the manual.
There is an Orange marker to position the leader at before closing the back, mine does not load unless the leader is at the center to right edge of the marker.
The takeup does not have sprocket teeth.

Thanks for the tips, shutterfinger.

I already had downloaded the manual, just skimmed over the film loading part and thought I was ready to go.

I followed the manual and still can’t load. I tried different films and different leader tip positions, even past the orange marker, but nothing I can do will make this camera load film. I thought the teeth were missing because it looks like there were teeth there:

Well, in fact, I have shot a 12 exp. roll with it, but I had to cut the leader straight and tape the film to the take up spool (I used Scotch Magic Tape, left no residue). I shot the same scene multiple times at the same EV (but with different shutter speeds and apertures). The negatives look the same (in terms of density), so it seems most shutter speeds are good. I didn’t try really high or low speeds, though. No light leaks too.

Camera looks and feels good. It’s just a that it doesn’t load film!

 

[shutterfinger]

You're correct, my mistake. The takeup roller has sprocket teeth ‪0.396875‬ high on the bottom end only. Its been a long time since I looked at my F4.
Download the service manual at http://arcticwolfs.net/

 

[AgX]

But how could those teeth got off?

-) The take up spool is friction loaded to be controlled by the film. And even it was not, the film (TAC) would tear before the teeth could shear off.

-) They might have been taken off. The spool does not look like that, but if the spool was mounted in a lathe or so with attached mill or grinder one could as precice as leaving no extra marks, other than handheld.
But why would one do so? Especially with the teeth on the transport wheels still there.

 

[shutterfinger]

Could someone have cut down sprocketless bulk film and loaded it with tape?

I would try to reform the teeth with JB Quick weld or similar product before disassembling the body. Those teeth are only there to grab the leader and get it started.

 

[fdonadio]

But how could those teeth got off?

That’s the million dollar question.

But now, at least, we know what’s keeping the camera from loading film.

I don’t know what the previous owner did to the camera. An acetate-based film might get torn by the teeth, but maybe a PET-based film could be strong enough to “cut” them off.

There’s a sticker inside the film compartment with a name and “Placar Magazine”, which is a well known soccer magazine here in Brazil. This camera might have seen heavy use back then in soccer games and must have spent some good time under the sun. Maybe those teeth got brittle and broke of, one by one, until there was none.

 

[fdonadio]

I would try to reform the teeth with JB Quick weld or similar product before disassembling the body. Those teeth are only there to grab the leader and get it started.

Thanks for measuring the teeth. I now have some options:

1. Reform the teeth, like you said;

2. Find the part and change it;

3. Take the part out, measure it thoroughly, design it on a CAD program and have it 3D printed.

 

[AgX]

Could someone have cut down sprocketless bulk film and loaded it with tape?

But then the sprocket wheel should be teethless too.
And to my understanding that is still original.

 

[AgX]

I don’t know what the previous owner did to the camera. An acetate-based film might get torn by the teeth, but maybe a PET-based film could be strong enough to “cut” them off.

In a "classic" camera the take-up spool is friction loaded and whilst transporting idle turning faster than needed but decelerated by the film.
To tear film or its teeth the friction-brake either must have got stuck, or the take up spool must be driven differently from the start.

 

[Robin Guymer]

It looks more like the sprocket teeth were pulled out as there seems to be a hole where they once were. Maybe the teeth were replaceable and new ones could be glued in. I would guess a few teeth dropped out so the magazine photographer removed them all and just used a small bit of masking tape, or double sided tape on the leader for each new roll. That seems the best solution as I doubt the glue in sprocket teeth are still available.

 

[AgX]

What glue-in sprocket teeth were ever available? Such were not designed replacable at any camera.

 

[Robin Guymer]

What glue-in sprocket teeth were ever available? Such were not designed replacable at any camera.

Your correct of course. One would have had to purchase the full component, as always. No profit in selling glue in teeth!

 

[fdonadio]

Wow... not a fix for the average guy. I’ll have to seek professional help, but the main problem will be finding the part.

 

[AgX]

What would be cheaper, getting the part from stock, a donor camera or having that part made by a mechanic?
I do not know how that very spool exactly works, but maybe only one or two teeth are needed, that simplifies making that part.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

As mentioned by @shutterfinger in #6, the easiest method might be to reform a few new sprockets - all you need to do is affix some small object to the spool that will fit inside the film's sprocket hole.

 

[shutterfinger]

The sprocket tooth height was incorrect in post 4 and I have corrected it.
The space is too tight to get my digital caliper in so I used a precision stainless steel ruler in 64th graduations.
The sprocket teeth are tapered on the film plane side and perpendicular on the back hinge side and just cover the first 64th mark.
1/64=0.015625(inch)*25.4=0.396875mm.

 

[fdonadio]

I am gonna try to cut some pin heads, heat them and stick in the right places.

 

[AgX]

Wow, Shutterfinger has a caliper that shows 2/5000 of a millimeter.

 

[shutterfinger]

Wow, Shutterfinger has a caliper that shows 2/5000 of a millimeter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-To...331060&hash=item1ee15225cf:g:j00AAOSwBNtbAKdq
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Magnifying...239838&hash=item4d53cb11da:g:i1oAAOSwUKxYmmEh
a very good eye and Windows calculator.

 

[fdonadio]

Well, guys... thanks for all the help.

Yesterday, I went to a camera repair shop I trust in São Paulo and talked to the owner/repairman.

He doesn’t have the part and told me it will be hard to find, and that a donor body would be an easier bet than finding the part new.

He also quoted the service at over 500 USD, because “the camera has to be almost completely disassembled and the whole fix would take days”. Of course, he would also clean and lubricate the mechanisms and replace light seals. Still, it’s way more than I would like to spend.

I will be trying to reform the teeth myself using some kind of glue or resin, like some of you guys recommended. If it doesn’t work out, I’ll just clean the roller and use tape to load the film.

 

[kmg1974]

there is a guy in NL that has several nikon f4 bodies (defective ones) for sale. Maybe I can contact him and see if he would be willing to sell one.
I can help you maybe to interact with him if his English is not very good.
https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/audio-...f5dcc18d02a99040ca8de656940d2&previousPage=lr

 

[Chan Tran]

there is a guy in NL that has several nikon f4 bodies (defective ones) for sale. Maybe I can contact him and see if he would be willing to sell one.
I can help you maybe to interact with him if his English is not very good.
https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/audio-...f5dcc18d02a99040ca8de656940d2&previousPage=lr

He wants 200 Euro for a non working F4. I am willing to sell my working F4s that can't rewind with power for less than that.. I think the clutch is slipping. It's otherwise working fine.

 

[kmg1974]

i just contacted him, he wants to sell all cameras in one go (he has 5)....

 

[kmg1974]

sorry, didn't see anyone had replied. I asked him if we would be willing to sell one for 50, and he said no..