Nikon F2... A and AS

CMoore · Jul 2, 2019

What was the benefit of the F2 A Series.?
Maybe i am wrong, but i believe, with pre AI glass, you had to stop-down to meter.?
Why did not Nikon just update the S or SB to take the post AI lens and still be able to meter the pre AI stuff..... if you know what i mean.?
Thank You

mshchem · Jul 2, 2019

Nikon made a F2AS version. Same as S with AI meter link. I don't use built in meter much. The beauty of the F2A is it will couple with even some current AF lenses if there's a aperture ring.

bdial · Jul 2, 2019

Pre AI bodies don't require stop-down metering unless there is no coupling prong on top of the lens. The first generation AI lenses included this, I don't know when it was dropped. But, the older meters may not be reliable, I have two F model FTN meter prisms, and the meter doesn't function on either one. Even if the meters work, there may be battery issues to deal with.

__Brian · Jul 2, 2019

The changes were required to the indexing mechanism of the meter to work with Ai lenses. The DP-12 is an Ai version of the DP-3, used on the F2SB.
The metering prong (Bunny Rabbit Ears) were left in place to make them backwards compatible with older meters. You could keep the F2 body and buy a DP-11 or DP-12 to use with it, use with DP-1, DP-2, and DP-3 to index via rabbit ears and the F5.6 Shuffle.

__Brian · Jul 2, 2019

bdial said:
Pre AI bodies don't require stop-down metering unless there is no coupling prong on top of the lens. The first generation AI lenses included this, I don't know when it was dropped. But, the older meters may not be reliable, I have two F model FTN meter prisms, and the meter doesn't function on either one. Even if the meters work, there may be battery issues to deal with.

The older meters for the Nikon F can be calibrated for 1.5v batteries, or you can use a diode to lower the voltage to 1.35v.

CMoore · Jul 2, 2019

Yeah, but the A and AS do not have a button to engage the "ears" on a pre-AI lens.
Way back when those were made, there were tons of pre-AI lens. So why did Nikon do that...progress.?

__Brian · Jul 2, 2019

Yes- it was progress. Nikon moved from manually indexed meters where you had to set the ASA dial to the maximum aperture of the lens, to the "F5.6 Shuffle", to the Auto-Index system. Progress- put the lens on the camera, the meter worked properly with it. As opposed to the older method where forgetting to manually index the lens to the meter resulted on bad exposures.

For $25 Nikon would factory convert most non-Ai lenses to Ai, giving it a CLA and replacing the aperture ring. I worked in a camera shop when the Ai system was introduced. With other manufacturers- try to use an R series lens on a Canon F1. The lens will mount, the aperture mechanism stops down in the opposite direction. Preset R-Mount lenses worked just fine.

The early Nikon F Photomic finders could be used in an uncoupled mode with lenses without the metering prong, did not require stopping down. The meters have a slider on front, and an F-Stop readout above the viewfinder. Set the lens to a given F-Stop, move the slider to set the meter to the same F-Stop. The original Photomic Bullseye, Photomic T, and Photomic Tn all have this mechanism. The Photomic FTn required stop-down metering.

CMoore · Jul 2, 2019

__Brian said:
Yes- it was progress. Nikon moved from manually indexed meters where you had to set the ASA dial to the maximum aperture of the lens, to the "F5.6 Shuffle", to the Auto-Index system. Progress- put the lens on the camera, the meter worked properly with it. As opposed to the older method where forgetting to manually index the lens to the meter resulted on bad exposures.

For $25 Nikon would factory convert most non-Ai lenses to Ai, giving it a CLA and replacing the aperture ring. I worked in a camera shop when the Ai system was introduced. With other manufacturers- try to use an R series lens on a Canon F1. The lens will mount, the aperture mechanism stops down in the opposite direction. Preset R-Mount lenses worked just fine.

The early Nikon F Photomic finders could be used in an uncoupled mode with lenses without the metering prong, did not require stopping down. The meters have a slider on front, and an F-Stop readout above the viewfinder. Set the lens to a given F-Stop, move the slider to set the meter to the same F-Stop. The original Photomic Bullseye, Photomic T, and Photomic Tn all have this mechanism. The Photomic FTn required stop-down metering.

Right..... Thank You
I guess what seemed weird to me was that Nikon did it with the last of the F2.
I could understand why they would abandon the old system with the F3.
I guess it just seemed a bit odd to me that they would do it a few years before, and not keep offering the "Old System" on (all of) the older F2 cameras.........

Chan Tran · Jul 2, 2019

CMoore said:
Right..... Thank You
I guess what seemed weird to me was that Nikon did it with the last of the F2.
I could understand why they would abandon the old system with the F3.
I guess it just seemed a bit odd to me that they would do it a few years before, and not keep offering the "Old System" on (all of) the older F2 cameras.........

If Nikon wanted to make the F2A and AS compatible to both Pre AI and AI lenses then the viewfinder has to have both types of coupling plus built in aperture scale for Pre AI lenses and the ADR optics to display the aperture with AI lenses. The photomic viewfinders, unlike today, were not that expensive and one can can buy a DP-1 or DP-3 in addition to the DP-11 or DP-12 to support both type of lens.
I actually don't think it's so much progress but rather a less expensive way of doing things. Today in fact Nikon reverse to manual indexing for their DSLR's when used with AI lenses. Instead of the "F/5.6" ritual you have to enter the maximum aperture into the camera to properly display the aperture.

__Brian · Jul 2, 2019

CMoore said:
Right..... Thank You
I guess what seemed weird to me was that Nikon did it with the last of the F2.
I could understand why they would abandon the old system with the F3.
I guess it just seemed a bit odd to me that they would do it a few years before, and not keep offering the "Old System" on (all of) the older F2 cameras.........

The DP-1 and DP-3 (non-Ai) were in production concurrently with the DP-11 and DP-12 (Ai). The EL2, Nikkormat FT-3, FM, and FE were all brought out before the F3 as Ai cameras with stop-down metering for non-Ai lenses. Nikon switched the entire system to Ai around 1977 or so. You could easily buy new bodies for non-Ai lenses if that was the choice. Many Nikon users had their lenses factory converted. I had my last conversions done at Mora camera in the early 90s.

CMoore · Jul 2, 2019

Chan Tran said:
If Nikon wanted to make the F2A and AS compatible to both Pre AI and AI lenses then the viewfinder has to have both types of coupling plus built in aperture scale for Pre AI lenses and the ADR optics to display the aperture with AI lenses. The photomic viewfinders, unlike today, were not that expensive and one can can buy a DP-1 or DP-3 in addition to the DP-11 or DP-12 to support both type of lens.
I actually don't think it's so much progress but rather a less expensive way of doing things. Today in fact Nikon reverse to manual indexing for their DSLR's when used with AI lenses. Instead of the "F/5.6" ritual you have to enter the maximum aperture into the camera to properly display the aperture.

__Brian said:
The DP-1 and DP-3 (non-Ai) were in production concurrently with the DP-11 and DP-12 (Ai). The EL2, Nikkormat FT-3, FM, and FE were all brought out before the F3 as Ai cameras with stop-down metering for non-Ai lenses. Nikon switched the entire system to Ai around 1977 or so. You could easily buy new bodies for non-Ai lenses if that was the choice. Many Nikon users had their lenses factory converted. I had my last conversions done at Mora camera in the early 90s.

Yes. Thanks for the info.
I kind of forgot about all the conversions Nikon offered back then.
It was all probably a smart move on their part.
Thanks Again

Theo Sulphate · Jul 2, 2019

Lots of people think the F2A and F2AS are the best of the F2 combinations. Those people probably don't own many pre-AI lenses. They just mount their AI(S) lenses and -poof- they meter in the same manner as they would on an F3, F4, F5, F6, any other FMx, FEx, or whatever. If they want to use a pre-AI lens, they have to meter stopped down. Furthermore, F5, F6, FM2, FE2, FA, among others, won't accept a pre-AI without risk of damage.

But for those who have and love pre-AI lenses (40% of my Nikon lenses are pre-AI), the F2, F2 Photomic, F2S, and F2SB are more desirable. Not only can we still mount AI(S) lenses, but we can mount pre-AI as well. Plus, we meter wide open. The only disadvantage is we need the aperture prong ("rabbit ears") on the lens and we have to do the "Nikon twist" (which I consider a sacred ritual). Nikon continued to manufacture AIS manual lenses with the prong well into 1990's, I believe. Even some lenses without the prong have little divots around f/5.6 in case you want to add a prong.

For simplicity, my manual focus Nikons are placed into two camps: the bodies with which I use only pre-AI (F, F2, FT2, EM) and bodies with which I use AI (F3/T, FM, FM3A, FE2).

For your reading pleasure:
https://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/compatibility-lens.htm

CMoore · Jul 2, 2019

I understand 100% where you are coming from.
But at this point, all my pre-AI glass has been converted, so they will meter on "anything".
But like i say, i appreciate your perspective and holding on to a "Nikon Tradition"

Theo Sulphate · Jul 2, 2019

CMoore said:
...
But like i say, i appreciate your perspective and holding on to a "Nikon Tradition"

Not only that, señor, I get to buy excellent lenses at lower prices.

Huss · Jul 3, 2019

Nikon still makes the 50 1.2 ais and 35 1.4 ais w the meter prongs.

__Brian · Jul 3, 2019

With all that- I used the Nikon F2SB more than any of my other SLR's, I have the F2AS. It's just nice to be able to grab any Manual Focus Nikkor lens and use with it.

BradS · Jul 3, 2019

Whenever I'm puzzled by a design decision that Nikon made with regard to lens-body compatibility, I think to myself, "Nikon wanted to sell lenses". They seem to me to have fairly consistently decided to make new lenses compatible with older camera bodies whereas the new camera bodies were not necessarily (rarely?) compatible with older lenses.

I imagine (I could not afford and thus wasn't "into" Nikon back then) that by the time they brought the DP-11 and DP-12 to market, Nikon had long since discontinued the "old" pre-AI lenses . I further imagine the sales pitch..."The AI system really is easier/better" (and, I personally think it is too). So, if we teleport ourselves back to a "pro" camera store in, oh, say 1979...I think it is easier to understand the design decisions made by Nikon. There are no pre-AI lenses in the display case, there are only these new lenses with substantially the same or, in some cases, significantly better optical designs but having a "significantly improved" meter coupling mechanism...it all makes sense...at least to me.

Theo Sulphate · Jul 3, 2019

The AI lenses were the future - Nikon was happy to eliminate the mechanical linkage and the attendant costs required by the pre-AI design.

Since then, as Ken Rockwell once observed, Nikon has maintained an approximate 20-year "sliding window" of compatibility between bodies and lenses.

Pieter12 · Jul 3, 2019

I understand the design decision to get rid of the meter prong--on an unmounted lens it protrudes and can easily catch on things in a camera bag. I had one put a deep scratch in another lens when the front cap fell off.

Dennis-B · Jul 3, 2019

Along with the AI lenses, the DP12 prism also changed from CDS to SPD metering. They also added LED readouts, changing from a moving needle, along with an eyepiece shutter. Very much a prelude to the F3. Since it was a prism, no need to try and modify the body. Very much a modular design.

Vincent Peri · Jul 3, 2019

Pieter12 said:
I understand the design decision to get rid of the meter prong--on an unmounted lens it protrudes and can easily catch on things in a camera bag. I had one put a deep scratch in another lens when the front cap fell off.

Hmm... and that's why I
always have a haze filter
on all of my lenses...

__Brian · Jul 3, 2019

Dennis-B said:
Along with the AI lenses, the DP12 prism also changed from CDS to SPD metering. They also added LED readouts, changing from a moving needle, along with an eyepiece shutter. Very much a prelude to the F3. Since it was a prism, no need to try and modify the body. Very much a modular design.

The DP-3 finder, non-Ai, used SPD's and LEDs. The older DP-2 used CDS cells. Nikon discontinued the DP-2 once the DP-3 was announced, and filled F2S orders with the F2SB.
The DP-3 came out before the DP-12.

Ai lenses were introduced with Ai cameras. This was a system switch-over. The Non-Ai versions of lenses were discontinued when the Ai system was introduces, but a large inventory of some lenses remained. It was cheaper to buy a non-Ai version of some lenses and have it converted by Nikon to Ai, rather than buy the Ai version of the lens.

Nikon had to keep up with the Canon FD mount, which has auto-indexing. Canon moved from the FL mount, which required stop-down metering. Manually-indexed Nikon lenses were easier to use than Canon FL mount lenses. The FD mount was a one-up on manually indexed lenses.

BradS · Jul 3, 2019

__Brian said:
Nikon had to keep up with the Canon FD mount, which has auto-indexing. Canon moved from the FL mount, which required stop-down metering. Manually-indexed Nikon lenses were easier to use than Canon FL mount lenses. The FD mount was a one-up on manually indexed lenses.

...not to mention the Pentax K mount.

CMoore · Jul 3, 2019

BradS said:
Whenever I'm puzzled by a design decision that Nikon made with regard to lens-body compatibility, I think to myself, "Nikon wanted to sell lenses". They seem to me to have fairly consistently decided to make new lenses compatible with older camera bodies whereas the new camera bodies were not necessarily (rarely?) compatible with older lenses.

I imagine (I could not afford and thus wasn't "into" Nikon back then) that by the time they brought the DP-11 and DP-12 to market, Nikon had long since discontinued the "old" pre-AI lenses . I further imagine the sales pitch..."The AI system really is easier/better" (and, I personally think it is too). So, if we teleport ourselves back to a "pro" camera store in, oh, say 1979...I think it is easier to understand the design decisions made by Nikon. There are no pre-AI lenses in the display case, there are only these new lenses with substantially the same or, in some cases, significantly better optical designs but having a "significantly improved" meter coupling mechanism...it all makes sense...at least to me.

Theo Sulphate said:
The AI lenses were the future - Nikon was happy to eliminate the mechanical linkage and the attendant costs required by the pre-AI design.

Since then, as Ken Rockwell once observed, Nikon has maintained an approximate 20-year "sliding window" of compatibility between bodies and lenses.

More excellent info..... Thank You
It's kind of funny, thinking back..... before i bought my F2A i bought a pair of F3. I really thought i would sell my F2 stable and go with the F3. So any pre-AI ,lens i had, i had them converted by John White. Is that his name.?
After several months with the F3, i found i really preferred the F2, so i sold the 3's.
But OK...now it is 2019, and i am not any kind of photo-journalist and at 60 years old am wondering about continuing to lug around the Size/Weight of the F2.
The FM Series has (i think) the same meter that people so covet in the SB and AS..... so i was thinking i might give that a try. I have a pair of FM and one FM2n.
I have hardly used them. Mostly, i guess, because of the way Nikon has the shutter activation linked to the film advance handle. Its needing to "stick out" for the shutter to fire is an annoying feature.
There is always something i guess.

Theo Sulphate · Jul 3, 2019

CMoore said:
... have a pair of FM and one FM2n.
I have hardly used them. Mostly, i guess, because of the way Nikon has the shutter activation linked to the film advance handle. Its needing to "stick out" for the shutter to fire is an annoying feature.
...

Agree. But if you get a "first version" FM (identifiable by knurled release collar), you can release the shutter with the wind lever pushed flush with the body.

Behold!

Nikon F2... A and AS

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