Nikon F and Mirror Desilvering

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logan2z

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I'm looking at picking up an early (1964) Nikon F with the plain prism. I've done some research and it seems like the plain prisms can be prone to desilvering. According to the seller, there are no signs of this issue with the camera he's selling, but I'm curious if desilvering is essentially the death knell for the camera or if it is feasible to repair it if it does occur. Buying a replacement prism doesn't seem to be an economical solution since those seem to be selling for more than the camera bodies at the moment :blink:
 

Huss

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Hmm. My two plain prism Fs have no signs of that. Never was on my radar, unlike cameras like Leicaflexes, OM1s etc.
Buying a replacement prism would seem to be a temporary fix, given that it was made about the same time.
 

Mike Lopez

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I'm looking at picking up an early (1964) Nikon F with the plain prism. I've done some research and it seems like the plain prisms can be prone to desilvering. According to the seller, there are no signs of this issue with the camera he's selling, but I'm curious if desilvering is essentially the death knell for the camera or if it is feasible to repair it if it does occur. Buying a replacement prism doesn't seem to be an economical solution since those seem to be selling for more than the camera bodies at the moment :blink:

I can't speak to whether prism de-silvering is reparable, having never experienced it. However, a failing prism would not mean the end of the camera's utility. Waist-level finders are available, typically for less than a plain prism goes for these days. And those big photomic finders are also an option. The best part? Interchangeability with a whole universe of Nikons. I'm often swapping finders between my one F and three F2 bodies. It can be fun.
 
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logan2z

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I can't speak to whether prism de-silvering is reparable, having never experienced it. However, a failing prism would not mean the end of the camera's utility. Waist-level finders are available, typically for less than a plain prism goes for these days. And those big photomic finders are also an option. The best part? Interchangeability with a whole universe of Nikons. I'm often swapping finders between my one F and three F2 bodies. It can be fun.
True, swapping in a Photonic finder would be an option, but I do prefer the profile of the plain prism. I guess if the prism hasn't desilvered during it's first 60 years then maybe it won't start during my ownership :smile:
 

Mike Lopez

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True, swapping in a Photonic finder would be an option, but I do prefer the profile of the plain prism. I guess if the prism hasn't desilvered during it's first 60 years then maybe it won't start during my ownership :smile:
Those plain prisms are indeed sexy.
 

John Koehrer

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It may be that a prism can be found* in a Nikkormat or Ft/Ftn prism parts body .


* It's been a long, long time but through the fog of years I believe some will fit.
 

reddesert

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De-silvering (coating loss) could depend on environmental / storage conditions, so it's not a given that all prisms of a type would break down at the same time. I don't know of any economical recoating services, but have also never really heard of it being a problem on Nikon F plain prisms. It sounds like one of those issues that gets amplified by internet repetition.

The plain prisms have had a little bit of a collector bonus at least since the 90s or so. There were fewer of them because the original users wanted meters, I don't know if the collector bonus took off until resistor failures started to cause some of the metered finders to fail. On the other hand, I have a metered prism that still works, too.
 

awty

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It may be that a prism can be found* in a Nikkormat or Ft/Ftn prism parts body .


* It's been a long, long time but through the fog of years I believe some will fit.
This is what I did. I bought a $50 Ft and donated the prism to my Nikon F with a bad prism. The Ft prism is a smidge smaller so it fits the F with a little bit of adapting, but the F prism won't fit into a Ft.
 

250swb

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I'm looking at picking up an early (1964) Nikon F with the plain prism. I've done some research and it seems like the plain prisms can be prone to desilvering. According to the seller, there are no signs of this issue with the camera he's selling, but I'm curious if desilvering is essentially the death knell for the camera or if it is feasible to repair it if it does occur. Buying a replacement prism doesn't seem to be an economical solution since those seem to be selling for more than the camera bodies at the moment :blink:

I've had two Nikon F's that had de-silvering in the plain prism, it starts around the edge but I don't think it's necessarily a sign of immediate doom, mine lasted years and years without getting worse. That said you do see some that are very bad, so it's a good idea to start with a good prism. One thing you can do is fit a Nikon F2 plain prism (you just need to unscrew the F's Nikon nameplate) but the price of these is akin to a replacement F body and even the F2 Photomic head will fit although of course it will have no battery power.
 

Huss

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I've had two Nikon F's that had de-silvering in the plain prism, it starts around the edge but I don't think it's necessarily a sign of immediate doom, mine lasted years and years without getting worse. That said you do see some that are very bad, so it's a good idea to start with a good prism. One thing you can do is fit a Nikon F2 plain prism (you just need to unscrew the F's Nikon nameplate) but the price of these is akin to a replacement F body and even the F2 Photomic head will fit although of course it will have no battery power.

F2 plain prism is way more expensive than an F plain body!
 

Roger Walker

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De-silvering (coating loss) could depend on environmental / storage conditions, so it's not a given that all prisms of a type would break down at the same time. I don't know of any economical recoating services, but have also never really heard of it being a problem on Nikon F plain prisms. It sounds like one of those issues that gets amplified by internet repetition.

The plain prisms have had a little bit of a collector bonus at least since the 90s or so. There were fewer of them because the original users wanted meters, I don't know if the collector bonus took off until resistor failures started to cause some of the metered finders to fail. On the other hand, I have a metered prism that still works, too.
I HAVE A NIKOREX F (BOUGHT IN THE MID-SIXTIES), FOUR NIKORMATS AND A NIKON F2 AS. NONE OF THEM SHOW ANY SIGNS OF DESILVERING. YES! I'M A NIKON FILM CAMERA WHORE; ALTHOUGH I'VE GIVEN EACH SON A NIKORMAT BODY AND LENS,
 

250swb

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I HAVE A NIKOREX F (BOUGHT IN THE MID-SIXTIES), FOUR NIKORMATS AND A NIKON F2 AS. NONE OF THEM SHOW ANY SIGNS OF DESILVERING. YES! I'M A NIKON FILM CAMERA WHORE; ALTHOUGH I'VE GIVEN EACH SON A NIKORMAT BODY AND LENS,

There are many cameras that have had a good life even if used professionally. I've had a few Nikon F's but the two with de-silvering where bought from a newspaper and I know for a fact they'd been used photographing football matches outside in the pouring rain many times. Humidity can also be a problem for mirrors, sudden temperature changes, etc. Something can be read into the past life of a Leica if it's rangefinder mirror is de-silvering so it's not just something that can happen to a Nikon. But the 'it's never happened to me' approach is as absurd as saying that about anything in life, you just have to follow it with the word 'yet'.
 

Huss

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. But the 'it's never happened to me' approach is as absurd as saying that about anything in life, you just have to follow it with the word 'yet'.

I have never received a hot oil massage from Olivia Wilde.

Sorry, I have never received a hot oil massage from Olivia Wilde, yet.
 

millardmt

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There are many cameras that have had a good life even if used professionally. I've had a few Nikon F's but the two with de-silvering where bought from a newspaper and I know for a fact they'd been used photographing football matches outside in the pouring rain many times. Humidity can also be a problem for mirrors, sudden temperature changes, etc. Something can be read into the past life of a Leica if it's rangefinder mirror is de-silvering so it's not just something that can happen to a Nikon. But the 'it's never happened to me' approach is as absurd as saying that about anything in life, you just have to follow it with the word 'yet'.

What you say is true. I have had many, many Nikon F & F2 prisms, plain and metered (50-plus, at least). (I am always the odd-man out in that I consider the Nikon standard eye-level prisms to be god-awful eyesores compared to any of their metered counterparts. )

Anyway, I'd estimate that nearly 50% of all the standard prisms I've owned have experienced the advent of the dreaded "line down the middle" roof desilvering, and almost all of those have been of the older "F-syle" vintage. The condition worsens with age. The standard "F" vintage eye-level prisms WILL desilver -- starting at the prism apex -- regardless of use or environmental conditions.

Marc

(PS: I have to repeat that, just like other camera-brand finders made in the 60's & 70's which incorporated foam-packing in their manufacture, Nikon metered AND non-metered prisms will fail progressively and -- beyond a certain point -- irreparably, as the deteriorating foam melts into a gooey-mess and becomes a voracious mirror-coat eating solvent.)

(PPS: I used to be a statistician for many years -- so please spare me from comments like "Well, MY prism is still just fine ..." MMT)
 

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mcrokkorx

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There are always exceptions to common experience, but the general trend I've been seeing over the past decade is the Nikon F plain prisms are rapidly veering more into pretty baubles to put on a collector shelf than pleasantly usable pieces of active camera gear. My own experience "mirrors" that of Millard Marc Thomas above: it is very very difficult now to track down a Nikon F plain prism that doesn't exhibit at least the beginnings of center line separation and a few desilvering floater spots near the eyepiece. Finding one that is also cosmetically undamaged is even harder.

A few years ago, after three decades as a diehard Nikon F2 fanatic, I stumbled across an irresistibly priced, really clean F "Apollo" body with plain prism. Much to my dismay, the pretty looking prism shell was far from pretty inside. It had the most desilvering-ravaged glass I've ever looked thru: dim, filled with floaters, thick heavy black separation line down the middle. Thus began a intensive search for a replacement F prism that was cosmetically and optically clean. It took three years (and a level of eBay scouring I hope never to repeat) to track down a nice replacement prism, plus another complete F "Apollo" body with plain prism, Both cost me dearly, much more than I would have paid had this not turned into a ridiculous Moby Dick quest instead of an ordinary gear purchase.

My reward for all that effort and expense? Within a year, both of my pristine plain F prisms began their inevitable decline. The first suddenly developed a roof separation line at top and bottom, which is slowly growing toward the middle to complete itself. Perfectly usable, but disappointing. The second suddenly developed a cluster of little black floaters hovering mid-view: tell tale sign that the eyepiece packing foam is turning to tar, retracting, and pulling bits of silver off the glass. Again, still perfectly usable, but the clock is ticking and I expect it will be pretty bad five years from now. I gather from F2 plain prism fanciers that a similar trend is happening with those, but more slowly with less severe separation, and it is easier to find pristine plain F2 prisms (at a price. of course) vs optically perfect F prisms.

In over thirty years, I've never yet had any trace of desilvering spots or separation lines develop in any of my F2 meter prisms or Nikkormat prisms. I've also been fortunate with my two inherited F Photomic FTn bodys: meter issues, yes, but optics have remained perfect. While the F Photomic FTn is known to be somewhat vulnerable, many of them have an internal protection shield between foam and prism glass similar to the later F2 meter prisms. It isn't unusual to see a desilvered F Photomic prism, but they apparently aren't decaying on nearly the scale of the plain F prisms (esp the early F prisms with rectangular eyepiece).
 
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millardmt

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There are always exceptions to common experience, but the general trend I've been seeing over the past decade is the Nikon F plain prisms are rapidly veering more into pretty baubles to put on a collector shelf than pleasantly usable pieces of active camera gear. My own experience "mirrors" that of Millard Marc Thomas above: it is very very difficult now to track down a Nikon F plain prism that doesn't exhibit at least the beginnings of center line separation and a few desilvering floater spots near the eyepiece. Finding one that is also cosmetically undamaged is even harder.

A few years ago, after three decades as a diehard Nikon F2 fanatic, I stumbled across an irresistibly priced, really clean F "Apollo" body with plain prism. Much to my dismay, the pretty looking prism shell was far from pretty inside. It had the most desilvering-ravaged glass I've ever looked thru: dim, filled with floaters, thick heavy black separation line down the middle. Thus began a intensive search for a replacement F prism that was cosmetically and optically clean. It took three years (and a level of eBay scouring I hope never to repeat) to track down a nice replacement prism, plus another complete F "Apollo" body with plain prism, Both cost me dearly, much more than I would have paid had this not turned into a ridiculous Moby Dick quest instead of an ordinary gear purchase.

My reward for all that effort and expense? Within a year, both of my pristine plain F prisms began their inevitable decline. The first suddenly developed a roof separation line at top and bottom, which is slowly growing toward the middle to complete itself. Perfectly usable, but disappointing. The second suddenly developed a cluster of little black floaters hovering mid-view: tell tale sign that the eyepiece packing foam is turning to tar, retracting, and pulling bits of silver off the glass. Again, still perfectly usable, but the clock is ticking and I expect it will be pretty bad five years from now. I gather from F2 plain prism fanciers that a similar trend is happening with those, but more slowly with less severe separation, and it is easier to find pristine plain F2 prisms (at a price. of course) vs optically perfect F prisms.

In over thirty years, I've never yet had any trace of desilvering spots or separation lines develop in any of my F2 meter prisms or Nikkormat prisms. I've also been fortunate with my two inherited F Photomic FTn bodys: meter issues, yes, but optics have remained perfect. While the F Photomic FTn is known to be somewhat vulnerable, many of them have an internal protection shield between foam and prism glass similar to the later F2 meter prisms. It isn't unusual to see a desilvered F Photomic prism, but they apparently aren't decaying on nearly the scale of the plain F prisms (esp the early F prisms with rectangular eyepiece).

Your language describing the deterioration of old Nikon prisms is admirably precise. In contrast, I am often guilty of using the terms "separation," "desilvering," "edge-desilvering," "delamination", and "icky mirror-eating slime" -- et cetera -- in an inexcusably haphazard manner. And continue to do so. (Rigorous definition can in fact be found for each of these phenomenon elsewhere on the net.)

While I am correcting myself, I must also admit I ought not to have said in my response to @250swb that environmental variables are irrelevant when, in an absolute sense, they ARE indeed pertinent. I'm sorry, 250swb. I was merely trying to remind hopeful users and insane collectors -- I am a member of both groups -- that entropy does indeed continue to work despite our best wishes to the contrary.

Marc
 

Huss

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Well, I'm glad to say that my beautifully patina black F has no prism issues. Just checked it.
:wink:
I'll be selling it anyway but that is good to know for the next buyer.
 
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