Night Photography

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Marco B

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This is very intriguing Marco. My pinhole is f256 and takes a 4"x10" piece of film. Do you have any additional data to share? Are your two uploaded images both TMax 400?

Both images were on TMax 400. Like I said, I have tried the other film types in a controlled fashion, and all were beaten by TMax 400.

Generally, most of the images I made, required at least 20, and a maximum of 45 minutes. The 7 minutes exposure was an exception, as there was a very strong light illuminating the lion.

For general "night-time" scenes, I would recommend a 30-45 minutes exposure to get "in the ball park" based on an F128 pinhole and TMax 400 film.

In your case than with F256, something between 1-2(3) hours should give a usuable negative, for some scenes maybe 40 minutes.

How does one arrive at these exposure times?

Generally through lots of failure... and bracketing... and suggestions from others

No, through measurement. Although I do bracket using 35 mm, I measure for LF, and use reciprocity tables to compensate to get in the ball park. Like you also said in your other post Amanda, at such long exposure times, the exact time is less critical.

I did find Ralph Lambrechts "Pinhole Dial", in combination with his "Reciprocity compensation table" on his Dead Link Removed very useful though, and now always carry it with me. The reciprocity tables proved to be rather accurate. You can find these in the "Library" section of the site.

By the way, if you look at that reciprocity table, you will also notice that conventional wisdom that 100 ISO film beats 400 ISO at long exposures, doesn't necessarily hold up.

Just take for instance a "Measured time" of 4 minutes for a 400 ISO setting on your light meter. Now look at the table, it shows a 14 minutes exposure time for TMax 400.

Now 4 minutes at a 400 ISO setting on the light meter, translates to 15 minutes for 100 ISO. And that doesn't even account for reciprocity, as the table tells that TMax 100 would require 40(!) minutes for correct exposure!


So clearly, TMax 400 beats TMax 100 in most ordinary night time photography situations...

Marco
 

Marco B

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I think much of the faulty wisdom of 100 ISO film beating 400 ISO film at long exposures, is based on old emulsion types, not the modern day T-Grain emulsion we have now. It depends on the exact films and emulsions you are using, if that "wisdom" holds up or not...

I think it's time to lay this myth of 100 ISO film to rest, I have seen it coming up a bit too often here on APUG. If you want shortest exposure times, get TMax 400. Of course, there is nothing wrong with using a 100 ISO film like Fuji Acros 100 with good reciprocity characteristics at night time if it suits your need for fine grain, but don't falsely expect shorter exposure times.
 
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lilmsmaggie

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The lack of precision in night photography is what frustrates a lot of people--but I love it because it eliminates a lot of sticky technical issues that bother me with my day photography.

Amanda, is there a reason for this trial and error approach to night photography? Seems like there are enough people (Baskerville, et al.),
who have established processes and procedures that works (at least for them), so that the "lack of precision" should not be much of an issue.

As for me, based on lighting issues that can vary considerably from subject subject, to time of day, indoors and outdoors; daytime photography poses just as many frustrations when it comes to determining exposure time :tongue:

So -- I guess for me as a newbie, that makes photography in general just plain frustrating.
 

AmandaTom

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Yes, there is a reason for the trial and error approach at night, just as there is during the day. You have to find what works for you. Personally, I like a lot of deep black in my pictures but other people prefer more shadow detail. Every film behaves differently when it is used for long exposures. I started off with a chart that gave me ballpark figures for certain films in certain situations. After I internalized those, I got pretty good at just guessing. A lot of folks want something more precise than that which is where charts, tables, and calculators come in. But even with those, your mileage may vary.

I am very fussy with getting the exposure right during the day and spend a lot of time metering a scene and determining the zones and so forth. I do none of that at night--I just wing it. I know how Acros and Delta 400 and HP5+ behave, and most of my shots are in the 5 min to 3 hour range so the fuss about what is faster than what becomes rather moot. Except, as Marco has stated, with TMax 400, but I have never tried it.

Basically I use Acros for well-lit areas because it gives me fine grain in a short time and I know how it behaves from the many times I have used it. In the deeper shadow areas I might use one of the Ilford films. But then again, I might not. Depends on what I have loaded in the holders, and what developer I have on hand. Presently I primarily use Acros developed in Acu-1 1:10 for 12 minutes.

I would think it best to get the film the teacher recommends, use the charts referenced here, and see how you like what you get. Then change your methods accordingly. My first rolls were done this way and I discovered I prefered the under-exposed look. When out with a friend I may shoot a scene at f/8 for 3 mins and he may decide f/8 for 12.
 

Konical

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Good Afternoon,

I think the Amanda's approach makes lots of sense. Actually, with a little experience, "just wing it" can give fairly predictable results. The subjectivity of our eyes (perhaps more likely our brains) when viewing renditions of night scenes also allows allows a good deal of leeway.

A couple of things not already mentioned or emphasized in this thread: 1--A heavy, sturdy tripod is a real pain to lug around, but having and using one raises considerably the percentage of "keepers" when shooting at night. 2--Taping or otherwise securing film in a holder is a good idea when making long exposures. A possible alternative is rapping or shaking the holder just before putting it in the camera; usually that will "seat" the film adequately. (Doing one or the other of these things is virtually mandatory when doing twilight/full dark double exposures.)

Perhaps the most satisfying thing about doing night shots is discovering, when the film is processed, something in the scene which went completely unnoticed during the shooting.

Konical
 

Marco B

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2--Taping or otherwise securing film in a holder is a good idea when making long exposures. A possible alternative is rapping or shaking the holder just before putting it in the camera; usually that will "seat" the film adequately. (Doing one or the other of these things is virtually mandatory when doing twilight/full dark double exposures.)
Konical

I have never had issues with my 4x5 holders, but maybe 8x10 is more of an issue for what you describe. I never taped the film down in the holder for night time exposures.

Perhaps the most satisfying thing about doing night shots is discovering, when the film is processed, something in the scene which went completely unnoticed during the shooting.
Konical

Yes, you are right, especially after the headache of trying to focus and compose on an almost impossibly dim LF groundglass... :wink:

I have also found it useful to carry small LED lights which to put down on the point I want to focus on. I may be impossible otherwise to focus on the groundglass. A heavy torch might help too in some situations.
 

Marco B

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I know how Acros and Delta 400 and HP5+ behave, and most of my shots are in the 5 min to 3 hour range so the fuss about what is faster than what becomes rather moot. Except, as Marco has stated, with TMax 400, but I have never tried it.

Well, I wouldn't say that is moot: 5 minutes is just a quick cup of coffee at Starbucks, 3 hours a five course diner at a 3 star restaurant :tongue::D

Seriously, try TMax 400 once for your nighttime shots, you may like it... and have some time left for more shots or another cup of coffee :wink:

Marco
 

AmandaTom

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Marco--I'm planning on buying some tomorrow, on International Film Buying Day. I want to try it in my panoramic pinhole (it has a curved back). A few sheets of 4x5 to play with would do me as well. And I get your point about the moot... My last set of night photos I did on a recent trip to France. I set up the camera outside the house I was staying in, went and ate dinner, read my book, took a little nap, then finally finished the exposure 3 hours later.

Thanks for the tips!
 

Marco B

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What camera were you using for the 3 hours exposure, your pinhole or LF at a more reasonable F22 to F64 maybe?

And download Ralph Lambrechts reciprocity table for TMax (and maybe the Zone Dial and Pinhole Dial). I found these very useful once I figured them out.
 

AmandaTom

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I am using 4x5 at f/11. I would have had an adequate picture after an hour but I had the north star over the house and I wanted significant star trails.

Looking up the suggested tables and dial now.
 

Marco B

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Ok, that must have been with moon and star light only than, considering the hours exposure? Or were these on 100 ISO film?

I have made night time 4x5 pics using an LF camera at F11-F22 with maximum of about 15 minutes exposure on TXP320 , but those were lit by artificial lighting in a town.
 

AmandaTom

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Both. The only light was from some solar garden lights, and the film was 100 ISO. No street lights, and right out in the countryside with no light from nearby towns. The moon was low in the sky well out of the picture.

Even with a faster film it would have taken an hour because of the lack of light. At f/8 I might have got away with 20 minutes.

I have done 4x5 in better lit situations using f/11 for 12 minutes with pleasing results.
 

glbeas

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I agree the Tmax 400 will be hard to beat as it is a tabular emulsion with very good characteristics. If you really want to get serious about long exposure photography you should check out gas hypersensitization use by astrophotographers. I haven't heard if gas hypering works for Acros though. Any starshooters out there who can fill us in?
 

Lee L

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Gas hypering of film for astrophotography was most widely used with Tech Pan, where it had the greatest effect, but with other films it only increased speed about 1 stop. When T-grain and Delta grain technology was introduced, hypering was much less effective in increasing film speed because there was much less reciprocity to eliminate, and hypering fell out of favor as both emulsion improvements and a shift to CCD imaging became prevalent. Lumicon, the leader in sales of forming gas, hypering chambers, and pre-hypered film, no longer does any business in this area.

Hypering Acros would likely be completely pointless, and lead to more problems (greatly increased base density, unevenness of hypering across the film, etc) without any speed benefit. If you want to meet a group of very strong advocates of digital, hang out with astrophotographers.

Lee
 

Nightfly

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Acros works fine out the box for me. I wouldn't change a thing. Most astrophotographers have gone digital, that leaves the few of us film users with unique opportunities for film. In a lot of cases film is still better, it all depends on what your doing.

Moon Rays and Star Trails
Acros 30 minutes, 6x7 55mm@ f/8

3942999520_e48e69fbc5_o.jpg
 

verney

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I need to give Fuji's 100/400 Neopans a try. I have never tried black and white during night, only color slides. No need to worry about color shifts ;-)

I have Rodinal and ID-11. Which developer should I use?

I looked into technical publications by Fuji and they talk about Fuji's own hardening fixer. Is hardening needed? I have both types but I'm just wondering which one to use.
 
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lilmsmaggie

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After briefly perusing Sanderson's book, last night I decided to venture out with my X-700 equipped with a 28mm f2.8 and loaded with Delta 400 and a tripod. I shot two separate subjects for a totals of 8 frames (so far) based on the information Sanderson displays in a chart on p. 23 of his book:

Each subject was photographed @ f2.8 for 6 secs.
f4 " "
f5.6 for 13 sec.
f8 for 36 secs.

Not sure how these are going to turn out since I'm basically following Sanderson's suggested exposures.
 

mikez

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Hey lilmsmaggie. I did an extensive project in b/w night photography for over a calander year shooting every week at least once a week. Some digital proofs i have online. I could help you as i mainly shot delta or tmax 400. Reciprocity charts are a good starting point but i like to do tests.

Heres a list of some essentials:

A good tripod is an absolute must. something even heavier than you expect you will need or at least a weight you can tie to it. I found myself going close to water a lot and at times it got windy.

Cable release no doubt.

Bring more film than you plan to shoot.

Bring someone with you. Some of the more remote or industrial places tend to be more interesting but less safe or at best very creepy.

Bring some prints with you that youve done incase (ive run into cops countless times and theyre almost always ok with what im doing) the authorities or other people question you. Its a good conversation piece and shows you have pure intentions.

Bring gloves and a hat. It gets cold.

Let there be light. Bring flashlights and batteries so you can see where youre going what youre doing and if youd like to "paint" or "fill" with light.

Shoot in medium or large format. If youre going to be spending so much time on each exposure you might as well get a neg with more info. Also night scenes tend to be very contrasty and the larger film helps retain some more of a tonal scale.

Bring a digital slr for proofing in addition to a hand held meter. Be careful digital slrs arent effected by reciprocity failure but they can give an excellent starting point of understanding the readings on your handheld meter. Then you come up with your own compensations based on testing.

Just shoot. My biggest flaw was being ocd about finding the perfect location, but when i did it was magical. I would have learned much quicker by just shooting more.

Aestheically i could talk to you all day but its all subjective.

Bring food and drinks. If youre like me youll be out into the wee hours of the night and you will get very hungry and thirsty. I could have saved a lot of time and money if i brought my own grub. Caffine is a staple.

Dont be afraid to go to the same place more than once. You learn so much about artificial light, natural light, clouds, the moon, etc when you shoot at night. All of these variables can effect your photos tremendously.

Dont quit!!! Your photos will improve over time. This was one of the trickiest subjects i have tackled and you will have failures and frustrations (even more so than with daytime photos) but keep going it is worth it.

Michael kenna is a good photographer to look at but i prefer the work of jan staller who is from the nj/nyc metro area. Look him up too.

Hope this helps and feel free to ask me anything else.

Mike
 
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lilmsmaggie

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Well, I've shot one roll using Sanderson's suggested exposures. I have a question that is eating away at me:

Why is it you can use long exposures at night but during the day, most likely your highlights will get blown out or the entire image is overexposed?

As the King of Siam would say: "It's a puzzlement."

Anyway, my current night subject is Mondavi Center at U.C. Davis. When there are no events scheduled, the building is illuminated with lots of artificial exterior lighting. So far, this is the situation I've encountered.

I'm shooting with Delta 400 aperatures ranging from f2.5 to f16 - increasing exposures as aperture gets smaller e.g. 3 secs to 3 minutes 36 secs. Tonight, I plan on shooting this range and adding +- exposure compensation for each aperture, so that should give me a total of 24 exposures.

Wish me luck!
 

MattKing

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Well, I've shot one roll using Sanderson's suggested exposures. I have a question that is eating away at me:

Why is it you can use long exposures at night but during the day, most likely your highlights will get blown out or the entire image is overexposed?

As the King of Siam would say: "It's a puzzlement."

You can use long exposures at night because the light available is very dim - so dim, in fact that the film's exposure is outside the range where reciprocity works in a normal manner.

Matt
 
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