Newbie looking for suggestions for a large format 4x5 camera for landscape/building photography

Candlejack · Sep 21, 2021

Hello all! So I'd like to start the search for an affordable, used 4x5 camera I can use for landscape photography and building photography. The problem is, I dont know camera brands, which used ones are cheap, and which ones usually come with lenses. (Ive been reading about lens boards and feel like this may not be as easy as I think it is)

Ive found some posts on here addressing used budget large format, but they all seem to be quite old (the threads that is) so im not sure what someone should be looking for in 2021?

film_man · Sep 21, 2021

I was at the same position as you in 2020. Ended up getting a new 4x5 from Intrepid. It may not be the sturdiest or the smoothest to use but it is new, comes with a warranty and is still cheaper than most beat-up 50 year old you'll find. They have a very good set of info on their site on the bits you need to buy. Basically the bits you want to buy are:

1. camera (in my case the Interpid 4x5 mkIV plus their fresnel screen which makes it sooooooo much easier to focus)
2. lens, lens shutter (don't assume it comes with the lens!) + appropriate lens board. I got a Nikon 90/4.5 and a 180/5.6. In hindsight, the 90 is a bit too big and heavy, a slower lens would do just fine.
3. film holders. I got new Toyo ones...you can get used ones but I'm thinking at $15/sheet I'd rather spend a bit more on new holders.
4. dark cloth (a jacket will do but the cloth is easier)
5. light meter (or maybe one of those phone apps that work as lightmeters though these will depends on how good your phone camera is).
6. tripod
7. cable release
8. magnifying loupe for focusing
9. film changing tent (do yourself a favour and don't get a bag)
10. film
11. lots of time

I will let others chip in with used equipment etc. The Intrepid has been fine for me so far, I have had no issues at all with it and I don't think anything more expensive would improve my results, there is a lot I need to do better shooting large format before the camera becomes an issue.

Also, if you are not doing the development yourself (I'm not) consider how you will send the film to the lab. Generally you would put it in the box it came in but if you bought a 10pack and have 3 holders that can take 6 sheets the box still has 4 sheets in it. So either find an empty box or maybe get those black photo bags that are available in various sizes.

neilt3 · Sep 21, 2021

The information in those old threads is still correct .
You buy a camera , make sure it's complete with its back/focus screen .
You decide what focal length lens you want , and buy it .
Depending on the shutter size the lens has , you buy a lens board that fits both the lens and the camera .
You then buy some film holders and film .
If you don't have access to a dark room ( either a temporary one , bathroom with covered window etc , or permanent one ) you need a changing bag .
Presumably you have a tripod sturdier enough ?

juan · Sep 21, 2021

Read all the articles on the front page of https://www.largeformatphotography.info/

you can get cameras that will work for $200 - maybe less. You can also spend thousands. I’d suggest getting an inexpensive used one with most if not full movements, a 90mm lens, and start shooting buildings. After a hundred shots or so, you’ll know if you need different equipment.

removed account4 · Sep 21, 2021

often times inexpensive work OK for a little while but they can sometimes be a pain to work with, might not have bellows suitable for wide or longer lenses, or the movements typically used in architectural work, but they're cheap and might work.

AnselMortensen · Sep 21, 2021

A good, inexpensive choice of a 4x5 for a beginner is an older, gray Calumet CC-400-series monorail.
You'll want a monorail to shoot architecture. Folders & field cameras don't have enough movements for architecture, but are more convenient for landscape.
Almost any recent lens from the "big 3" lens makers (Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji) in a recent shutter (Copal) in your choice of focal length from 90mm to 210mm would be a good start.

Candlejack · Sep 21, 2021

[

juan said:
Read all the articles on the front page of https://www.largeformatphotography.info/

you can get cameras that will work for $200 - maybe less. You can also spend thousands. I’d suggest getting an inexpensive used one with most if not full movements, a 90mm lens, and start shooting buildings. After a hundred shots or so, you’ll know if you need different equipment.

Yup, this will be for fun /contact printing the film with cyanotype or van dyke. I definately dont need to spend thousands. Ill read through them! Thank you.

Candlejack · Sep 21, 2021

neilt3 said:
The information in those old threads is still correct .
You buy a camera , make sure it's complete with its back/focus screen .
You decide what focal length lens you want , and buy it .
Depending on the shutter size the lens has , you buy a lens board that fits both the lens and the camera .
You then buy some film holders and film .
If you don't have access to a dark room ( either a temporary one , bathroom with covered window etc , or permanent one ) you need a changing bag .
Presumably you have a tripod sturdier enough ?

I have a darkroom bag and can develop at home. My tripod should be sturdy enough.

If I can find a camera/lens combo on ebay ill probably buy it.

abruzzi · Sep 21, 2021

A few comments:

- monorails are usually the cheapest on the used market because they are more cumbersome to take out into the field, but on the other hand, monorails usually have a significant amount of movements available. Landscape photography will frequently use some movements, but are usually less extreme. Architecture is more likely to use more extreme movements.

- conversely, field folders are very popular today, moreso than monorails, for that reason nice field cameras are usually a bit more than most monorails. For some people "technical" cameras are a different category, but I see them mostly as similar to wood folders, but made of metal or carbon fibre. They may have had more flexibility than wood folder unce upon a time, but today the don't have that much of an advantage. You can find either with any movements, but usually not the same flexibility as monorails (but they fold up nice and small.

- there are some monorails that try to bridge the gap by having ways to fold won nice and small. The Technikardan is a good example (my favorite 4x5). But most of these are more expensive than a garden variety monorail.

- one big disadvantage with folders is the layout of most of them (not all through) is problematic for very wide angle lenses. First, some don't have easily interchangable bellows,so you cant throw on a bag bellows (bag bellows allow more flexibility of movements when the standards are very close together like when using a very wide lens.) The second problem is many folders' design focus by moving the front standard only. In mane cases this means that when you have a ultra wide 75mm or wider lens, you will get the bed of the camera in the shot unless you jump through some hoops.

I wouldn't look to find a camera and lens together. Figure out the camera you think is appropriate for your needs, then start looking for lenses separately. Fortunately good 4x5 lenses can be had reletively cheap (compared to 8x10 lenses at least) The standard lens many people start with is a 150mm ƒ5.6. You can find a passable one for $150-$200. If you want wide the most common is 90mm, and long is 210mm. However there are /lots/ of other sizes and the 90/150/210 might not be your ideal grouping.

Don't forget all the additional accesories you'll need--dark cloth, loupe, film holder, and if you develop yourself, you'll probably need different tanks, or tank inserts. When I jumped from 35mm to medium format, the transition was quick and seamless. When I went from medium format to 4x5, it took sometime of acquiring stuff before I was ready to take my first shot.

Jim Jones · Sep 21, 2021

I've used a variety of 4x5 cameras suitable for landscape and architectural photography over many decades. By now they are far from new, but all of them can still produce good photographs. Much of my 4x5 work was done with a flatbed Burke & James 5x7, often with a 4x5 back. It would still be my first choice for much 4x5 photography. Technical cameras like the Linhof (expensive), Meridian, or MPP are fairly versatile. Press cameras lack the back tilt and swing, sometimes useful for landscape. These often come with lenses that lack the coverage required when using front movements. Many 90mm lenses for sale were intended for press cameras, and do not have the coverage important for architectural photography. Someone new to LF photography might do a lot of studying and chose the ideal camera at the beginning. I recommend buying an inexpensive camera and using it for a while to determine what features you finally want. If you have questions about specific cameras, lenses, or accessories, ask here or at largeformatphotography.info. Someone is almost sure to have practical experience with them.
note: Abruzzi was first with quite good information.

Candlejack · Sep 21, 2021

abruzzi said:
A few comments:

- monorails are usually the cheapest on the used market because they are more cumbersome to take out into the field, but on the other hand, monorails usually have a significant amount of movements available. Landscape photography will frequently use some movements, but are usually less extreme. Architecture is more likely to use more extreme movements.

- conversely, field folders are very popular today, moreso than monorails, for that reason nice field cameras are usually a bit more than most monorails. For some people "technical" cameras are a different category, but I see them mostly as similar to wood folders, but made of metal or carbon fibre. They may have had more flexibility than wood folder unce upon a time, but today the don't have that much of an advantage. You can find either with any movements, but usually not the same flexibility as monorails (but they fold up nice and small.

- there are some monorails that try to bridge the gap by having ways to fold won nice and small. The Technikardan is a good example (my favorite 4x5). But most of these are more expensive than a garden variety monorail.

- one big disadvantage with folders is the layout of most of them (not all through) is problematic for very wide angle lenses. First, some don't have easily interchangable bellows,so you cant throw on a bag bellows (bag bellows allow more flexibility of movements when the standards are very close together like when using a very wide lens.) The second problem is many folders' design focus by moving the front standard only. In mane cases this means that when you have a ultra wide 75mm or wider lens, you will get the bed of the camera in the shot unless you jump through some hoops.

I wouldn't look to find a camera and lens together. Figure out the camera you think is appropriate for your needs, then start looking for lenses separately. Fortunately good 4x5 lenses can be had reletively cheap (compared to 8x10 lenses at least) The standard lens many people start with is a 150mm ƒ5.6. You can find a passable one for $150-$200. If you want wide the most common is 90mm, and long is 210mm. However there are /lots/ of other sizes and the 90/150/210 might not be your ideal grouping.

Don't forget all the additional accesories you'll need--dark cloth, loupe, film holder, and if you develop yourself, you'll probably need different tanks, or tank inserts. When I jumped from 35mm to medium format, the transition was quick and seamless. When I went from medium format to 4x5, it took sometime of acquiring stuff before I was ready to take my first shot.

Thank you for all the info. To be honest.. it may be best to stay with /look for 4x5 pinhole cameras for a while. Large format with lenses seems like quite the commitment.. financially and time wise... compared to pinhole and medium format.

neilt3 · Sep 21, 2021

Candlejack said:
Thank you for all the info. To be honest.. it may be best to stay with /look for 4x5 pinhole cameras for a while. Large format with lenses seems like quite the commitment.. financially and time wise... compared to pinhole and medium format.

Regards lenses , a lot comes down to focal length needed and amount of movement needed ( the lenses image circle ) .
I'm mostly interested in landscape , and my most used lens is a Schneider Symmar 135mm .
The lens itself cost less than £180 , and does most of what I need .
I have other lenses from 65mm , 75mm , a 90mm that sees quite a bit of use and longer ones for both 5x4 use as well as 7x5 and 10x8 .

Depending on how much movement you need , a folding field camera might suffice .
You can buy new cameras from Intrepid for a good price .
You can so use these cameras for pinhole photography , buying a lens when you have the budget for one .
The first large format camera I bought was a very old Grafflex Crown Graphic , which I still use from time to time .
Very restrictive for movements , but for most of what I wanted , it works just fine .
It cost me £100 , and that included a lens with it !
A few film holders and I was good to go .

If your buying used anyway , do your research on current prices and if you buy right , if it turns out LF isn't for you , you can sell them on without making a loss .
If you get lucky, you might even make a profit !

removed account4 · Sep 21, 2021

Candlejack said:
I have a darkroom bag and can develop at home. My tripod should be sturdy enough.

If I can find a camera/lens combo on ebay ill probably buy it.

I wouldn't process sheet film in a dark bag. YIKES, that's a recipe for disaster!

Candlejack said:
To be honest.. it may be best to stay with /look for 4x5 pinhole cameras for a while. Large format with lenses seems like quite the commitment.. financially and time wise... compared to pinhole and medium format.

not really, you can get shuttered lenses that cover the 4x5 format for less than 100$. Wollensak lenses are always affordable and convertible lenses offer 2 focal lengths in 1 lens... there are lots of options. if you go the pinhole route I'd look into a "zone plate" as well as straight pinholes they might offer you a different look.

neilt3 · Sep 21, 2021

jnantz said:
I wouldn't process sheet film in a dark bag. YIKES, that's a recipe for disaster!

a messy one at that !
But you can still load a MOD 54 or a Steerman Press developing tank in one .
Then develop in daylight .

Paul Howell · Sep 21, 2021

I do shoot 4X5, but over the decades as film has improved, smaller grain, increased resolution like Tmax and Delta 100, I think a 2X3 view camera with ample movements would be something to think about. There are drawbacks such as finding a wide angle lens that will cover the movements of a view camera, to shoot roll film need to switch between the ground glass back and roll film back. You can shoot sheet, but the range of film is limited to just a few.

Dan Fromm · Sep 21, 2021

Paul, 2x3 view cameras are harder to find and often more expensive than comparable 4x5 view cameras. My first 4x5 view camera, purchased to be the basis of a 2x3 "Baby Bertha," was a Calumet CC-401. Very capable camera, used to be widely used. My second 4x5 view camera is a Cambo SC-2, somewhat more capable and extendable than the Calumet. I have a couple of 2x3 Cambo SC-1s, smaller and slightly lighter than the SC-2. I haven't followed the market for 4x5 monorails for a while. When I did, SC-2s and various Sinar models were the common relatively inexpensive modular 4x5ers. Both are well supported.

FWIW, Fujinon LF lenses are as good as and usually less expensive than the equivalent Nikon, Rodenstock and Schneider lenses.

OP, if you want to find out about lenses' coverage, the first post in this
https://www.largeformatphotography....to-look-for-information-on-LF-(mainly)-lenses discussion has a link to a list of links to stuff, including lens catalogs etc., of interest to LF photographers. It is comprehensive and as complete as I could make it. I update it fairly often as I discover new material. Take a look at it. The sources of info you've been directed to are fine as far as they go but they're incomplete and not particularly up to date.

wiltw · Sep 21, 2021

For architectural work, you want a camera that has available

Ability to use bag bellows to permit shift of standards without bellows movement restrictions used even with Wide Angle lens
Rise/fall adjustment of front standard, for avoidance of converging vertical lines
Lateral shift if you cannot be perfectly parallel to building front, to avoid converging horizontals

#3 is less important than #1 and #2. And if a camera has ability to rotate both front standard and rear standard, that can achieve the same thing as using #3, although less conveniently.

Pioneer · Sep 21, 2021

Lots of options out there.

Monorails are considered ideal for architecture because of the available range of movements they provide and the fact that bag bellows can be used with most. A bag bellows is very useful for wide angle lenses which you will find to be the best option of buildings/architecture.

I started with a used Cambo SC monorail. I am glad I did. It was a bit clumsy to pack around but it was invaluable in learning how to use all the various movements and how they affected the final result.

I personally think the monorail is the best starter camera to teach you what you can actually do with a large format camera. Once you have spent some time with one then you will be able to make a much more informed decision on what you want in the future.

I still use a monorail, now a Graflex Graphic II, but my most used 4x5 is the little Intrepid. I learned that the Intrepid style of cameras provided me with the movements I value most while being very portable at the same time. For me portability was primary and the Intrepid gave me the best bang for the buck in this category. I can carry my Intrepid and everything I need while in the field photographing in, or on (in the case of the tripod), a pretty small day pack. This is far and away my favorite way to work. Yours may, and probably will, be different.

But be careful. Large format can completely consume you and you will find that you can spend a whole lot of money on some very, very nice cameras and lenses. It is great fun but I learned that it was more important to learn how to use what I already had than to spend a lot of money on expensive goodies. But, everyone does this differently and everyone has their personal favorites. There is nothing wrong with their favorites but you should usually listen more to how you actually use the camera to inform you on what you actually want and will use. Your favorite camera will probably be different than mine.

Enjoy yourself.

removed account4 · Sep 21, 2021

Paul Howell said:
I do shoot 4X5, but over the decades as film has improved, smaller grain, increased resolution like Tmax and Delta 100, I think a 2X3 view camera with ample movements would be something to think about. There are drawbacks such as finding a wide angle lens that will cover the movements of a view camera, to shoot roll film need to switch between the ground glass back and roll film back. You can shoot sheet, but the range of film is limited to just a few.

HI Paul
I'd agree, even a roll back on something so there isn't the hassle of limited offerings of sheet film those strange sizes but the OP was hoping to contact print negatives as VDB and Cyanotypes ...
Personally if it was me, I'd be ditching a traditional 4x5 and get a 5x7 and a 4x5 reducing back, many lenses cover 5x7 that cover 4x5 and if one can afford the film ( or doesn't mind shooting paper negatives and then making modern negatives or using lith or X-ray film making 5x7 alt process prints) . 5x7 cameras are not much bigger than 4x5 sometimes cost LESS and the image is a nice size contact printed... BS Kumar always has affordable 5x7s from Japan for sale ( like now! in the classifieds ).

wiltw · Sep 21, 2021

As for FL selection,

the vertical FOV of 90mm is the same as 24mm FL on 135, which is so often utilized in shift lenses for that format
But as 135 format is 'overlong' compared to 4x5, a horizontal FOV same as 36mm frame size using 24mm FL on 135 comes out to 80mm on 4x5, so I would select 75mm FL for horizontal FOV same as 24mm on 135

Candlejack · Sep 21, 2021

jnantz said:
I wouldn't process sheet film in a dark bag. YIKES, that's a recipe for disaster!

not really, you can get shuttered lenses that cover the 4x5 format for less than 100$. Wollensak lenses are always affordable and convertible lenses offer 2 focal lengths in 1 lens... there are lots of options. if you go the pinhole route I'd look into a "zone plate" as well as straight pinholes they might offer you a different look.

Lol I process in a tank. I use the darkroom bag to unload the film .

Candlejack · Sep 21, 2021

jnantz said:
HI Paul
I'd agree, even a roll back on something so there isn't the hassle of limited offerings of sheet film those strange sizes but the OP was hoping to contact print negatives as VDB and Cyanotypes ...
Personally if it was me, I'd be ditching a traditional 4x5 and get a 5x7 and a 4x5 reducing back, many lenses cover 5x7 that cover 4x5 and if one can afford the film ( or doesn't mind shooting paper negatives and then making modern negatives or using lith or X-ray film making 5x7 alt process prints) . 5x7 cameras are not much bigger than 4x5 sometimes cost LESS and the image is a nice size contact printed... BS Kumar always has affordable 5x7s from Japan for sale ( like now! in the classifieds ).

If it was affordable (more so then a 4x5) i would gladly do a 5x7 camera if i can find one, and use lith film or x ray film for contact prints. (Since those films are cheappp!)

Paul Howell · Sep 21, 2021

Found this on Ebay, might need some work, but the price is right.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133623113902?hash=item1f1c8ee8ae:g:QUoAAOSwW0Bf7PLk

Dan Fromm · Sep 21, 2021

Paul Howell said:
Found this on Ebay, might need some work, but the price is right.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/133623113902?hash=item1f1c8ee8ae:g:QUoAAOSwW0Bf7PLk

Movements?

removed account4 · Sep 21, 2021

Candlejack said:
If it was affordable (more so then a 4x5) i would gladly do a 5x7 camera if i can find one, and use lith film or x ray film for contact prints. (Since those films are cheappp!)

maybe something like this
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fs-japanese-whole-plate-camera-with-5x7-back.186697/
its not some clunky old have to fix it before you use it sort of camera, it is 5x7, you can use inexpensive film and develop by inspection to contact print, and if you decide you want to go BIGGER you can just go 1+" bigger all around to whole plate which is a great format! I haven't contacted midwest photo exchange to buy things in ages, but I remember Jim always seemed to have a large stash of film holders, bookbinders tape ( sold by the roll on amazon ) is the best thing to repair the hinges with. he'd probably have both 5x7 and whole plate holders, and who knows with slow X-ray and lith film you probably can get away with stopping down and not using a shutter which will lessen your $$ spent too... FYI Schneider symmar convertibles have a pretty big image circle and even bigger when converted, but be warned converted symmar lenses require more than their FL to focus at infinity. and long 5x7/WP bellows are long enough not to worry too much about that if you go that route.

Newbie looking for suggestions for a large format 4x5 camera for landscape/building photography

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