Newbie cyanotype question

kcannon · Feb 28, 2011

I'm starting to experiment with cyanotypes, my first venture with an alternative process, and I've run into a problem. The prints I've made have been acceptable for first attempts, but they all fade very significantly within about the first 24 hours.

I wash the finished exposures for 5 minutes under running water and have also tried using hydrogen peroxide as a fixer, but everything still fades down to a ghost of the original image.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Kelly

Hexavalent · Feb 28, 2011

What kind of paper are you printing on?
Some "acid-free" papers contain significant carbonate, which does not play well with cyanos (particularly the "new cyanotype" formula).

Mainecoonmaniac · Feb 28, 2011

Are you using this formula?
http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/processes/cyanotype/cyanotype-classic-process

This works for me using regular watercolor paper. I expose in bright sun for 4 minutes. Soak in plain water until image has cleared, then soak in a dilute solution of hydrogen peroxide until the image develops.

kcannon · Feb 28, 2011

I've used a watercolor paper I had on hand. I'm not sure of the brand, or if it's acid-free.

JBrunner · Feb 28, 2011

I suspect carbonate in your paper as well. Soak a small sample with occasional agitation in undiluted Sprite Zero for 20 minutes, rinse well, dry, and then try printing on that. If the problem is solved, it's your paper. If not it still could be the paper.

kcannon · Feb 28, 2011

Mainecoonmaniac: I am using that formula, with chemicals bought as part of a kit at my local camera store. I rinse under running water, not still. The hydrogen peroxide solution I use is probably pretty dilute, but I didn't measure it exactly. I would say about 1:20, using standard drugstore hydrogen peroxide. Maybe I should mix it stronger?

kcannon · Feb 28, 2011

JBruner: Sprite Zero? Interesting suggestion! I'll give it a try.

JBrunner · Feb 28, 2011

kcannon said:
Mainecoonmaniac: I am using that formula, with chemicals bought as part of a kit at my local camera store. I rinse under running water, not still. The hydrogen peroxide solution I use is probably pretty dilute, but I didn't measure it exactly. I would say about 1:20, using standard drugstore hydrogen peroxide. Maybe I should mix it stronger?

Peroxide does nothing to "fix" the image, it just speeds full oxidation (development). Air will do the same over several days. Cyanotypes aren't "fixed" because they are a product of oxidation (kinda like rust). Once fully oxidized (quickly by water and peroxide, slowly by water and air) they stop "developing". Your problem lies elsewhere.

One thing you can do is place one of your faded images back into water and peroxide and see if it develops back. If it doesn't return your prussian blue is bleaching to prussian white (from carbonate) or being washed away (phosphate) if it does return (re-develop prussian blue) your problem is in your chemicals or formula.

Once you get your process together you can use carbonate bleaching to advantage, like this:

Mainecoonmaniac · Feb 28, 2011

The hydorgen peroxide

kcannon said:
Mainecoonmaniac: I am using that formula, with chemicals bought as part of a kit at my local camera store. I rinse under running water, not still. The hydrogen peroxide solution I use is probably pretty dilute, but I didn't measure it exactly. I would say about 1:20, using standard drugstore hydrogen peroxide. Maybe I should mix it stronger?

The hydrogen peroxide dilution you're using is stronger that what I'm using. For a half gallon of water I only put in less than an ounce. I think you might have to figure out what's in your cyanotype kit. Try mixing your own. The chemicals are cheap. I mixed up a 4 ounce batch which are only two chemicals that last me a while. I put it in a dark jar it it keeps. It's potassium ferricyanide and ammonium ferric citrate. That 4 ounces will coat a lot of paper with a sponge type brush. All you need is a thin coat. Once the print is processed, the print should last decades and longer. Shouldn't fade.

Nicholas Lindan · Feb 28, 2011

A fast test to see if your image is getting bleached is to soak the image in tea (tannic acid, if you have it) for a few minutes to tone it.

http://www.berk-edu.com/HYB_subsite/PDF_hyb/ToningWithTea.pdf

The best thing about many alt processes, and especially with cyanotypes, is just mucking about and seeing what happens. Often the best results come about quite by accident.

kcannon · Feb 28, 2011

A number of good suggestions, thanks everyone. I'll try reprocessing the faded prints and toning with tea tomorrow. Have another cyanotype printing session planned for Friday and will try other suggestions then.

Kelly

Matthew Rusbarsky · Feb 28, 2011

Kelly-I'm guessing the Sprite Zero works as its rather acidic. Cyanotype chemistry needs an acid environment or it just won't work. Buffered papers will cause total fails. Alkaline tap water can also cause problems. My tap is somewhat alkaline so I splash some white vinegar in the wash. You can also develop in straight white vinegar. I'm sure that would overpower the buffers in the paper.

kcannon · Mar 1, 2011

Matthew Rusbarsky said:
...I splash some white vinegar in the wash. You can also develop in straight white vinegar. I'm sure that would overpower the buffers in the paper.

Great idea. I'll try that, too.

JBrunner · Mar 1, 2011

kcannon said:
Great idea. I'll try that, too.

If you do, let me know if it salt and peppers.

Matthew Rusbarsky · Mar 2, 2011

JBrunner said:
If you do, let me know if it salt and peppers.

It salt and peppers pretty well. I develop cyanos in my lasagna pan. I'm careful about not getting cyano chems in my lasagna, but I sometimes get lasagna in my chems. You have to be careful when grating the parmesan or the grain gets unacceptably large.

sly · Mar 2, 2011

Vinegar's my suggestion too. Our well water's alkaline - so washing in running water's not on with cyanotypes. I mix about a 200ml of vinegar into 1 1/2 liters of water for a tray and fill 4 trays and do successive soaks to clear my cyanotypes. Smells like a pickle factory in the darkroom on those days, but so far my oldest cyanos (6 or 7 years) are looking fine. If you can get your hands on a test strip meant for hot tubs or pools (or some urine test strips, or soil testing kits or....) you can see if your water is alkaline.

kcannon · Mar 3, 2011

Update..... I took 3 of the faded prints (same paper, same exposure & processing) and soaked one in 1 L of distilled water, the second in 1 L of distilled water with 30 ml of hydrogen peroxide, and the third in 1 L of distilled water with 50 ml of white vinegar, all for 5 minutes. The last one (vinegar) appeared unchanged after drying. The other two looked unchanged color- and density-wise, but the first (distilled water only) took on a mottled appearance, which is perhaps what JBrunner meant by "salt and pepper." I'm not sure what, if anything, to conclude from this.

I did buy some Strathmore watercolor paper that is supposed to be acid-free and coated it with emulsion this morning, anticipating a printing session tomorrow sometime. The chemicals used were potassium ferricyanide (40 g in 500 ml distilled water) and ferric ammonium citrate (100 g in 500 ml distilled water), mixed in equal proportions. Any suggestions as to how I should develop tomorrow's prints? My thought is distilled water with 3% hydrogen peroxide.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.

2F/2F · Mar 3, 2011

kcannon said:
I'm starting to experiment with cyanotypes, my first venture with an alternative process, and I've run into a problem. The prints I've made have been acceptable for first attempts, but they all fade very significantly within about the first 24 hours.

I wash the finished exposures for 5 minutes under running water and have also tried using hydrogen peroxide as a fixer, but everything still fades down to a ghost of the original image.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Kelly

I agree that it sounds like a paper problem, as I have had something similar happen using cheap watercolor paper from tablets. I'd try again on some good-quality paper.

Cyanotypes are developed and fixed by the water; it darkens the exposed emulsion while removing that which is unexposed. The hydrogen peroxide simply gives the blue a little punch, which it will achieve anyhow in the end by exposure to oxygen. The peroxide is a good idea because it gives you an idea of what the print will eventually look like. Kind of like drying a fiber print before making your printing adjustments, so you can see how much it darkens when it dries.

JBrunner · Mar 3, 2011

kcannon said:
Update..... I took 3 of the faded prints (same paper, same exposure & processing) and soaked one in 1 L of distilled water, the second in 1 L of distilled water with 30 ml of hydrogen peroxide, and the third in 1 L of distilled water with 50 ml of white vinegar, all for 5 minutes. The last one (vinegar) appeared unchanged after drying. The other two looked unchanged color- and density-wise, but the first (distilled water only) took on a mottled appearance, which is perhaps what JBrunner meant by "salt and pepper." I'm not sure what, if anything, to conclude from this.

I did buy some Strathmore watercolor paper that is supposed to be acid-free and coated it with emulsion this morning, anticipating a printing session tomorrow sometime. The chemicals used were potassium ferricyanide (40 g in 500 ml distilled water) and ferric ammonium citrate (100 g in 500 ml distilled water), mixed in equal proportions. Any suggestions as to how I should develop tomorrow's prints? My thought is distilled water with 3% hydrogen peroxide.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.

"Acid free" paper is specifically what you don't want. Get thee to Bostick and Sullivan or somewhere and order some good paper.

2F/2F · Mar 3, 2011

JBrunner said:
"Acid free" paper is specifically what you don't want. Get thee to Bostick and Sullivan or somewhere and order some good paper.

What effect does acid-free paper have on a cyanotype?

I always get my watercolor paper in single sheets from a local art store for about $2 - $3 a sheet (22x30). I have no idea if it is acid free or whatever, but it works fine.

sly · Mar 3, 2011

"Acid Free" can mean the opposite - alkaline. That's what fades cyanotypes. That's why I add vinegar (an acid) to my alkaline well water. Water varies alot from spot to spot with it's acidity. If your water is neutral or slightly acid, you wan't have to worry about the water. If your paper if buffered with alkaline substances to make it acid free, it might be fine for lots of stuff, but not cyanotypes. If you have alkaline water and buffered paper, you will sing the blues as your images faaadddde aaawaaaaay.

2F/2F · Mar 3, 2011

IME vinegar in the wash water really reduces contrast. So, you just make contrastier negs to suit?

sly · Mar 3, 2011

I double coat the paper, and mix 2A:1B. I've never printed anywhere else, so I've always had to add vinegar. Without it my cyanotypes fade to pale blue ghosts before they are out of the wash water.

kcannon · Mar 4, 2011

I just got the point on acid-free paper being alkaline, something I should have realized. I'll have to start over again with different paper stock. Thanks.

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