New Voigtlander Bessa's R2M and R3M

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firecracker

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The design of the ZI RF camera is done by Zeiss Ikon, and the engineering part by Cosina. Indeed the production of those new Bessa cameras were kind of a stepping stone for Cosina as a camera manufaturer to get to this level according to what I read before, other than Pop Photo.

Although Bessa R2 series and Rollei RF 35mm share the same design and the concept of the Epson digital RF body, ZI RF is somewhat separable from this category and more refined and distinctive.

My feeling (pure feeling) is that ZI RF is modeled after Leica M2 and M4 as well as old Zeiss RF cameras.

My by-the-end-of-the-year shopping list includes the ZI RF and Leica M4P. I've been betting, shopping around between these two models, and hopefully to pick up one when I get a good deal.
 

Biogon Bill

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Lee L said:
See my last post, referring you to page 3 of the Keppler article.

Lee

Lee, with Keppler as your source, I can see why you think that the ZI is a revision of the R2A. Unfortunately, the Keppler article is full of inaccuracies. I guess that at his age, he should be commended on the fact that he can still produce a 3-page article.

In that same article, Keppler claims that the list of Cosina/Voigtlander rangefinder lenses include the following: 21/4, 35/4, & 50/1.7. The CV stable of RF M-mount lenses doesn't include any lenses with these specs.

Similar errors can be found in his comments about the Zeiss Ikon. He states that "the base of the rangefinder is improved to 70 mm." In point of fact, the base line of the ZI measures 75 mm.

Keppler's statement that "the internal camera specifications are almost identical to the CV R2A" is equally mistaken. He himself points out that the "finder is vastly improved," so we know that this spec is different - which is a major difference on a rangefinder camera. In a general sense, the two are similar because they both have AE, manual focus, & electronic shutters. However, the difference is in the details.

The most significant difference between the finders of the two cameras isn't even mentioned by Keppler. The ZI finder includes 28 mm frame lines, making it the longest effective base length of any RF camera ever with 28 mm frame lines built into a single viewfinder. The widest frame lines on the R2A are 35 mm.

The electromagnetic controls of the two shutter systems are different. The more sophisticated controls of the ZI allow for permanet AE lock while AE lock on the R2A is strictly manual.

But the biggest difference in the shutter systems of the ZI & the R2A is the immediacy of response. Shutter delay for the ZI is 14 ms (milli-seconds) in manual & 20 ms in AE. This compares with 12 ms for the M6 & 25 ms for the M7. No other camera in the world can match this immediacy of response. When Pop Photo tested the Bessa R, they measured the shutter delay at 100 ms. The Konica Hexar RF was measured at 120 ms. Rangefinder photographers pride themselves on being able to capture the decisive moment in a way that SLR photgraphers cannot. The ZI provides this capability; the Bessa cameras, true to their SLR roots, do not.

The metering system of the ZI was changed from that of the R2A to make it more sensitive. You can see that simply by looking through the lens mount at the secondary shutter blades where the metering pattern is different on the ZI.

Even in the small details, the internal specs of the R2A & the Zi are different. The ZI has been built with a light-tight integrity that does not require foam in the back channels. Like almost every other camera you can find, the R2A has foam strips. When the foam goes, the camera leaks light.

Keppler states in his article that "Cosina did not hew to the same optical designs as the original Voigtlander lenses." This is a true statement. It is why criticism is justly deserved fro slapping the Voigtlander label on a series of lenses & cameras that have emerged from modern Cosina designs & which have nothing to do with the name they bear.

However, the Zeiss Ikon is a completely new camera design & is in no way a re-issue of a Cosina camera. The same is true for the lenses. These are Zeiss lenses and have nothing to do with any lenses that were ever developed by Cosina.

When he visited the Cosina factory in March. 2005, Stephen Gandy of Cameraquest said that the Zeiss Ikon shares no parts in common with any
Bessa camera. While this may have been a stretch since they both use standard Copal parts in their sshutters, for example, his basic point is that these are two completely different cameras.

Bill
 

Biogon Bill

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firecracker said:
My feeling (pure feeling) is that ZI RF is modeled after Leica M2 and M4 as well as old Zeiss RF cameras.

My by-the-end-of-the-year shopping list includes the ZI RF and Leica M4P. I've been betting, shopping around between these two models, and hopefully to pick up one when I get a good deal.

Firecracker, as a future Zeiss Ikon owner, you may be pleased to know that the Zeiss Ikon is not modeled after the M2 & M4, nor for that matter the old Zeiss RF cameras. It is a new design. If it were modeled after the M2/M4 lineage, it would essentially be an M7, which it is not. The M6 & M7 are derived directly from the M2.

What the ZI does share with the M2 & M4 is an uncluttered viewfinder, which has been lost with later Leica M cameras.

The Konica Hexar RF was clearly derived directly from the Leica M series. Unfortunately, it continued the same cluttered viewfinder from the M6 - only worse. Even Leica didn't includer 135 mm frame lines in a viewfinder with a magnification of only 0.6x.

The legacy of the M series cameras in the Hexar RF is most evident in its rangefinder design. Erwin Puts has demonstrated that this is a direct copy of the rangefinder in the M6, which is unchanged from the M2. It is identical.

However, the rangefinder design used in the Zeiss Ikon is completeely different than the one used by Leica or Konica. Puts has said that it is most similar to the design used on the M3. Both of these designs are more accurate than the later Leica & Konica design, and they eliminate flare & rangefinder parallax.

Bill
 

kivis

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Cosina has done a great service

Cosina has done a great service by all the really great products they have brought to market. Good to excellent quality and a real wake up call to Leica in my humble opinion.
 

Max Power

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kivis said:
Cosina has done a great service by all the really great products they have brought to market. Good to excellent quality and a real wake up call to Leica in my humble opinion.

I really hope so! I just dropped a huge chunk of change (for me!) on an R3A and 50mm 1.5 Nokton. My sincere hope is that it is every bit as good as Roger Hicks has stated it is!

Kent
 

Tom Hoskinson

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I think you'll be happy with it, Kent. I'm very fond of my R3A.
 

rfshootist

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Biogon Bill said:
I fail to follow the logic. How do you get from "joint venture" to "rebadged Cosina"?
Bill

Logic or not logic is not the decisive thing here. For some it seems simply enormously important (guess why) to talk the ZI down with this kind of rebadge babble. Not knowing what rebadging , licensed production , joint venture or production outsourcing is, it cannot stop them tho.
Actually the ZI has almost nothing to do with a Cosina Rxx model, this was said and proven a thousand times already, cannot stop them either.

It's about talking the camera down and therefore the facts do not play a
role .
We saw this when the Contax G came , when the Hexar came and of course when the Bessa series started, why should it be different now ?
S.O.S. = S.ame O.ld S.**t
As I heard, for those folks Leica offers pacifiers now, of course with a red dot on it.

Regards,
bertram
 

firecracker

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Biogon Bill said:
Firecracker, as a future Zeiss Ikon owner, you may be pleased to know that the Zeiss Ikon is not modeled after the M2 & M4, nor for that matter the old Zeiss RF cameras. It is a new design. If it were modeled after the M2/M4 lineage, it would essentially be an M7, which it is not. The M6 & M7 are derived directly from the M2.

What the ZI does share with the M2 & M4 is an uncluttered viewfinder, which has been lost with later Leica M cameras.

The Konica Hexar RF was clearly derived directly from the Leica M series. Unfortunately, it continued the same cluttered viewfinder from the M6 - only worse. Even Leica didn't includer 135 mm frame lines in a viewfinder with a magnification of only 0.6x.

The legacy of the M series cameras in the Hexar RF is most evident in its rangefinder design. Erwin Puts has demonstrated that this is a direct copy of the rangefinder in the M6, which is unchanged from the M2. It is identical.

However, the rangefinder design used in the Zeiss Ikon is completeely different than the one used by Leica or Konica. Puts has said that it is most similar to the design used on the M3. Both of these designs are more accurate than the later Leica & Konica design, and they eliminate flare & rangefinder parallax.

Bill

Thanks for the input. I do keep that in mind and try testing a bit when I get a chance. So far lately in Japan the cameras stores I go to (maybe I've been going to the wrong ones) don't let their customers to fire shutters of new cameras expecially the high-ends.

So, here I am a poor guy who only knows about Leica Ms, can't get to even feel the brand new ZI camera unless I put down my money or credit card. :sad:

Used camera bodies are however not a problem at all, and I recently found a serviced clean M4-P body for about the same price (about 120,000 yen or somewhere around 1,000 USD) as the ZI body (could be a used one, though) as far as I know.

I have M3 and am so used to it, so if the ZI is more similar to that instead of oher Ms, I'll be happier. Anyway it takes a little more time in a research.

So I can't really be a part of that naming game! :smile:
 

Roger Hicks

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Dear Kent,

I hope so too! It's always a bit frightening when someone spends large sums of money on one's recommendation. But I was looking yesterday at some pictures of the Faversham barge museum that I'm planning to upload to the galleries at www.rogerandfrances.com. They were taken with an original R or maybe R2 and 50/1.5 Nokton (with 2x yellow filter from B+W) on Paterson Acupan 200 (now Fomapan 200 Creative). I was still well pleased, several years on.

It's a lovely lens and they're all good cameras, though I have to say that the Zeiss Ikon (which Frances and I have also had for review) is even nicer. Then again, at twice the price, so it should be.

Cheers,

Roger
 

Uncle Bill

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Question for Mr Hicks,

Roger Hicks said:
Dear Kent,

I hope so too! It's always a bit frightening when someone spends large sums of money on one's recommendation. But I was looking yesterday at some pictures of the Faversham barge museum that I'm planning to upload to the galleries at www.rogerandfrances.com. They were taken with an original R or maybe R2 and 50/1.5 Nokton (with 2x yellow filter from B+W) on Paterson Acupan 200 (now Fomapan 200 Creative). I was still well pleased, several years on.

It's a lovely lens and they're all good cameras, though I have to say that the Zeiss Ikon (which Frances and I have also had for review) is even nicer. Then again, at twice the price, so it should be.

Cheers,

Roger

Roger,
You are closer to the source than the rest of us, is the R2M/R3M a limited run camera only or will there be a regular run edition? I like the idea a lot but my cashflow at the moment is not so hot and by the time that is fixed the cameras in question become collectables. The 50 f2 Helier really intrigues me.

Bill
 

Max Power

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Roger Hicks said:
Dear Kent,

I hope so too! It's always a bit frightening when someone spends large sums of money on one's recommendation.
It's a lovely lens and they're all good cameras, though I have to say that the Zeiss Ikon (which Frances and I have also had for review) is even nicer. Then again, at twice the price, so it should be.

Cheers,

Roger

Hello Roger,
Sorry, I ought to have expanded a bit on my initial comment; it would be both foolish and unfair of me to purchase a new system based solely on the (superb) review written by you and your wife.

It actually started with a Canonet; this little gem opened my eyes to how much better an RF could be when compared to an SLR for most of the things I like to do. A Zorki 4 (yes, a Zorki 4) further opened up the RF world with its 1:1 VF/RF. It was a natural progression from there (in my mind at least) to the R3A.

Your review was the cherry on the sundae. In my mind, if two such experienced RF photographers such as Frances and yourself had such glowing praise for the R3A, it couldn't be such a bad tool, especially considering it as a door to Leica M photography. You also very clearly stated that you saw the ZI as a middle step between an R3A and a Leica M in your ZI review; altogether two very honest write-ups.

Cheers again for your review, it helped to confirm my purchase.

Kent
 

Claire Senft

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Whence llast I handled a Leica they were not supplying pacifiers with a red dot. Is it possible to send one back to Leica for a retrofit?
 

kmonroe6

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Question on the R3M viewfinder - are the exposure compensation LEDs at the bottom of the screen powered by daylight or by battery? The work "LED" to me implies a power source but marketing types constantly corrupt the language so I'm not sure.

I guess the real question is, can I see the LEDs in dim light situations?

Thx
 

Will S

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You know, the battery just died on my R3A and when it goes it goes fast. The 1 started blinking and 3 frames later the shutter stared going all goofy. When I went to the camera store the guy gave me two batteries that were similar to what was in it originally, but they didn't work. He then gave me a single battery that did work. The only difference I could see was that the two batteries together were 3.1 volts and the one battery was 3 volts. So, if you have to replace the batteries make sure you check them at the camera store. The original ones don't seem to be available any more.

Best,

Will
 

Tom Hoskinson

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I use SR44 Silver Oxide batteries in my Voigtlander R3A. The voltage of the SR44 is 1.55Volts.

My R3A was shipped to me with a SR44 battery included
 

Will S

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Tom Hoskinson said:
I use SR44 Silver Oxide batteries in my Voigtlander R3A. The voltage of the SR44 is 1.55Volts.

My R3A was shipped to me with a SR44 battery included

Mine were L44 I think. We tried the SR44s but they didn't work. Must have been bad. At any rate, the single 3v battery worked as well.

Thanks,

Will
 

rfshootist

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Claire Senft said:
Whence llast I handled a Leica they were not supplying pacifiers with a red dot. Is it possible to send one back to Leica for a retrofit?

No. That would open a door to abuse by all these proletarian second hand users, which are ruining Leicas business, as the CEO claimed himself last year.

But it comes for free with every customized new M model, will have the same snakeskin as the camera has, a red dot on the upper part and with gilden letters on the lower part: ZEISS IST SCHEISS ! :tongue:

Best as always,
Bertram
 

Claire Senft

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Nein, Nein Zeiss ist nicht scheiss, Du bist krank mit der Leicakrankheit. Ach, Gott im himmel, du bist einen arshsluck und hosenscheisser.
 

Roger Hicks

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Dear Kent,

Sorry for the delay in replying. We were away in Portugal and when we came back this thread had disappeared from the 'New Posts' which are all I normally look at. Then it came back...

The R2M/R3M are indeed 'limited edition' but I don't think it's very limited; if I recall correctly, 1000 of each, in each finish (black and silver), so that's 4000 cameras, though it's also possible to read some of the press releases as 1000 in all, i.e. 250 of each.

Last time I heard there were 'no plans' to sell the collapsible f/2 separately, which is usually marketing speak for 'we will if enough people want them'.

Perhaps the best summary came from Damien Demolder in Amateur Photographer of (I think) 12 August. He said, in effect, that if the R2A/R3A, ZI and M7 all came from the same manufacturer, at their current prices, these prices would still fairly reflect the features, finish and quality of the cameras.

I don't agree completely -- I'd say that if the M7 is 'worth' £2000 and the ZI is 'worth' £1000, then the Voigtlander is 'worth' rather more than the under-£400 price tag in the UK -- but his view corresponds very closely to mine that roughly doubling the prices is a good guide, i.e. the ZI is about half as good as an MP (wouldn't touch an M7, because of the wrong-way shutter speed dial) and about twice as good as a Voigtlander.

There's also the question of diminishing returns, though. The Voigtlanders are still excellent cameras that I would have no hesitation about using professionally, except perhaps with very fast lenses, close up, at full aperture -- that's an awful short RF base.

I'd go for the R2M/R3M rather than the R2A/R3A but then I vastly prefer mechanical shutters.

Finally, Frances and I always use SR44s in our Voigtlanders and the MP. I had to buy LR44s once when the SR44s ran out and the life was indeed miserably short.

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com -- there's a review of the ZI on the site but it's not in the free section)
 

rfshootist

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Claire Senft said:
Nein, Nein Zeiss ist nicht scheiss, Du bist krank mit der Leicakrankheit. Ach, Gott im himmel, du bist einen arshsluck und hosenscheisser.

You call me an asshole and a shit-in-the-pants ?? Shall your embarrassing stammering really mean THAT? I cannot afford to answer on this level, but it was interesting to see how your dark room looks inside.
 

Claire Senft

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This of course was meant only as kidding around. It should be apparent from my post that I am not fluent in German..In fact my fluency in English is much in doubt.

My darkroom could certainly do with a good cleaning though.
 
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