New Nikon F6 VS. New Zeiss Ikon ZM (w/Zeiss 50mm f/2 Planar) - Which to purchase?

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chuckroast

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I am sorry to here about the Hasselblad theft. One needs to arrange the equipment to take out of the car, so that one leave the car with the camera equipment one wants and is not fiddling with the door or trunk open going though the camera bag for all to see. You know this, but other readers in the future will see this and hopefully learn.

My situation was different. There was an organized gang of thieves operating that caused a distraction so they could reach into the car and grab the bag I did have out --- which happened to be the HB bag.

I had replacement insurance on everything. I told the agent that I'd bought most of the stuff used and would be happy to find like-for-like used equipment again, he said, "Nope, you paid to replace and we replace only with new stuff." So ... I got an entirely new HB kit, 3 backs, and 4 lenses.
 

Sirius Glass

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My situation was different. There was an organized gang of thieves operating that caused a distraction so they could reach into the car and grab the bag I did have out --- which happened to be the HB bag.

I had replacement insurance on everything. I told the agent that I'd bought most of the stuff used and would be happy to find like-for-like used equipment again, he said, "Nope, you paid to replace and we replace only with new stuff." So ... I got an entirely new HB kit, 3 backs, and 4 lenses.

Tough life, but someone has to live it.
 

Mogens

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My situation was different. There was an organized gang of thieves operating that caused a distraction so they could reach into the car and grab the bag I did have out --- which happened to be the HB bag.

I had replacement insurance on everything. I told the agent that I'd bought most of the stuff used and would be happy to find like-for-like used equipment again, he said, "Nope, you paid to replace and we replace only with new stuff." So ... I got an entirely new HB kit, 3 backs, and 4 lenses.

How does that work with film gear that you can’t buy new? What would they replace my Rolleiflex with?
 

chuckroast

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How does that work with film gear that you can’t buy new? What would they replace my Rolleiflex with?

Assuming that the item was covered by a protected condition in the insurance coverage, they would find a dollar equivalent. At least that's what they did for me. They didn't actually buy the equipment. They came up with a number that was cost to replace plus tax.

However, they didn't just hand me a cheque. Because insurance fraud is so rampant, they wrote the check to my preferred photographic supplier and I bought against the amount there. At some point, after I'd purchased a fair bit of equipment, the vendor wrote me a check for the largish balance.
 

Sirius Glass

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Assuming that the item was covered by a protected condition in the insurance coverage, they would find a dollar equivalent. At least that's what they did for me. They didn't actually buy the equipment. They came up with a number that was cost to replace plus tax.

However, they didn't just hand me a cheque. Because insurance fraud is so rampant, they wrote the check to my preferred photographic supplier and I bought against the amount there. At some point, after I'd purchased a fair bit of equipment, the vendor wrote me a check for the largish balance.

I too have replacement cost home owner insurance and they do not play the games that most people experience with insurance games that many others experience.
 

mshchem

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My situation was different. There was an organized gang of thieves operating that caused a distraction so they could reach into the car and grab the bag I did have out --- which happened to be the HB bag.

I had replacement insurance on everything. I told the agent that I'd bought most of the stuff used and would be happy to find like-for-like used equipment again, he said, "Nope, you paid to replace and we replace only with new stuff." So ... I got an entirely new HB kit, 3 backs, and 4 lenses.

6 people (from California) went into a small store here in Iowa, it was a classic distract and grab thing. The store does a lot of wire transfers of cash to Mexico. Thieves made off with 70,000 USD, they caught these jerks right away, no cash. They're in jail, but it will probably be plea bargained. Thieves are the worst 😤
 
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manfrominternet
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I'm always worried about theves theving off with any of my numerous cameras. I really should get one of those RFID chips sewn into all my camera bags.
......

Any further thoughts on the Nikon F6 vs. Zeiss Ikon ZM?

Just a quick update - The seller is willing to sell me the whole Zeiss Ikon ZM set - all of which is immaculate and includes all original boxes and paperwork - for $1800 flat. Besides the Zeiss Ikon ZM body, this includes the Zeiss 50mm f/2 Planar ZM, Zeiss 50mm lens hood, Zeiss Ikon ZM hand grip, Gariz strap, and Mr. Zhou leather case.

I'm wondering whether the features of the Nikon F6, being an SLR, outweighs those of a rangefinder system like the Zeiss Ikon ZM or Minolta CLE...

I guess what I'm really asking is if the value of an $1800 Zeiss Ikon ZM set outweighs that of a Nikon F6. Does the rangefinder experience/lens ecosystem really produce sharper images than that of, say, a Nikon F6?
 

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Craig

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I'll start by saying I have an F6, and I have used the Bessa version of the Cosina camera the Zeiss is based on and I think between the two I would pick the F6. The shutter and mirror damping is incredible, plus the range of lenses available is much greater, including the vibration reduction lenses that you can't get with the Zeiss.

But for your stated purpose of handheld in low light, I'd get a Canon 7s (Elan 7N) and one of the IS lenses and pocket a whole bunch of money.

Image stabilization /Vibration reduction (Canon/Nikon terms) really is an amazing technology and can add between 3-6 stops of handholdability, depending on the lens. The Zeiss can't do that, and for your work I think it should be essential. If the only choice is F6 or Zeiss, go F6.
 
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I guess what I'm really asking is if the value of an $1800 Zeiss Ikon ZM set outweighs that of a Nikon F6. Does the rangefinder experience/lens ecosystem really produce sharper images than that of, say, a Nikon F6?

It's not a fair comparison but I paid less than $1800 for a Z6ii body and FTZii adapter. Even if the F6 is fetching as much as a new mirrorless body I'd choose the F6 over the Ikon for sheer utility.

If you want 'sharper' images spend more time practicing and spend less money on GAS.
 

warden

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Does the rangefinder experience/lens ecosystem really produce sharper images than that of, say, a Nikon F6?
I doubt it, unless we're talking slow hand holding. They both have superb lenses in their ecosystem that would produce negatives impossible to tell apart from one another.

Just a quick update - The seller is willing to sell me the whole Zeiss Ikon ZM set - all of which is immaculate and includes all original boxes and paperwork - for $1800 flat. Besides the Zeiss Ikon ZM body, this includes the Zeiss 50mm f/2 Planar ZM, Zeiss 50mm lens hood, Zeiss Ikon ZM hand grip, Gariz strap, and Mr. Zhou leather case.
At that price (assuming you can fix the problem with the rangefinder yourself) you could use the ZM for a year and sell it without losing any money. It's close to a free rental.

The reason to buy a rangefinder is because you like using them despite their limitations. A good SLR like that Nikon is more flexible of course if that matters to you.
 

markjwyatt

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...

I'm wondering whether the features of the Nikon F6, being an SLR, outweighs those of a rangefinder system like the Zeiss Ikon ZM or Minolta CLE...

I guess what I'm really asking is if the value of an $1800 Zeiss Ikon ZM set outweighs that of a Nikon F6. Does the rangefinder experience/lens ecosystem really produce sharper images than that of, say, a Nikon F6?

Of course the F6 is a much more powerful system than the Zeiss or a CLE. But what do you want? I've seen your work, and you appear to like to take pictures, and can see pictures! Any of those systems are very capable of taking great pictures. Are you planning on doing mainly or lots of macro work? Then go with the F6 for sure. Do you need to fully preview the image (including full bokeh effects, and perspective effects due to lens focal lengths)? Then go with the F6 (or maybe get a digital). Do you use really long telephoto lenses, then get the F6. Do you just want to see an image while out and about, then use a camera to capture it with a wide angle to short tele? Then maybe the rangefinders would be good. The F6 is not going to feel compact; though compared to a view camera, it may. The Zeiss or a CLE will. And if you are out and about, and can see good shots before putting the camera to your eye, then rangefinders are very nice. Plus Zeiss optics are hard to beat. I use both SLRs (but smaller mechanical ones, the biggest generally being an Exakta) and rangefinders (Contax and Retina) based more on the lens/lenses I want to use or what I have for film loaded at a given time, and in the end 95% of the time the fact that I was using an SLR or rangefinder really did not make that much difference in the pictures I got (I guess I cannot prove that, but that is how I feel based on what I get). And I mainly just take pictures when I am out and about, so really appreciate the compactness of a 35mm rangefinder. When I travel for work, I prefer a rangefinder (compact to travel with and carry around). I like both experiences (rangefinder/SLR) also. They are a little different, but both good once you get used to them.
 

petrk

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Does the rangefinder experience/lens ecosystem really produce sharper images than that of, say, a Nikon F6?
In my hands it looks like the ZM really produces sharper images, than say F100 (I do not have F6). But I use it for different projects, than the AF SLRs. Not fair comparation, because the F100 works under different cirucumstances (low light, fast actions). My negatives from ZM are really better, but I think my approach to way how I use my cameras is what makes the difference.
 
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manfrominternet
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In my hands it looks like the ZM really produces sharper images, than say F100 (I do not have F6). But I use it for different projects, than the AF SLRs. Not fair comparation, because the F100 works under different cirucumstances (low light, fast actions). My negatives from ZM are really better, but I think my approach to way how I use my cameras is what makes the difference.

That's what I'm wondering about. Maximum resolution with incredibly good lenses and the ability attach said lenses to my Sony a7R IV are of great importance to me. (I should have mentioned this last point about attaching lenses to my Sony a7R IV.)

Even if a rangefinder with Zeiss/Voigtlander/Leica lenses slightly edges out a Nikon F6 with top Nikon lenses, that's completely worth it to me. Being a large/medium format shooter, I'm already hunting for maximum image resolution. With 35mm film, I'm also looking for whatever gives me the highest image quality.

How do you shoot your Ikon ZM that gives you sharper negatives than your F100?
 

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It's all a matter of aste but, I can't stand rangefinders. I want a viewfinder that sees exactly what thelens sees, meaning SLR all the way!

It’s a lot harder to get smaller good quality lenses on SLR. 40mm is an exception.
 

Radost

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I'm always worried about theves theving off with any of my numerous cameras. I really should get one of those RFID chips sewn into all my camera bags.
......

Any further thoughts on the Nikon F6 vs. Zeiss Ikon ZM?

Just a quick update - The seller is willing to sell me the whole Zeiss Ikon ZM set - all of which is immaculate and includes all original boxes and paperwork - for $1800 flat. Besides the Zeiss Ikon ZM body, this includes the Zeiss 50mm f/2 Planar ZM, Zeiss 50mm lens hood, Zeiss Ikon ZM hand grip, Gariz strap, and Mr. Zhou leather case.

I'm wondering whether the features of the Nikon F6, being an SLR, outweighs those of a rangefinder system like the Zeiss Ikon ZM or Minolta CLE...

I guess what I'm really asking is if the value of an $1800 Zeiss Ikon ZM set outweighs that of a Nikon F6. Does the rangefinder experience/lens ecosystem really produce sharper images than that of, say, a Nikon F6?

The Zeiss will hold its price and get more expansive. I believe.
 

markjwyatt

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I will add that for wide angle lenses, rangefinders have a significant advantage over SLRs (e.g., they do not require retrofocus lenses as an SLR with the additional distance to accommodate a mirror assembly). Not sure if this is important to you.

My favorite lens on my Contax rangefinder is the Voigtlander [Cosina] 21mm f4. It is a great lens, and so compact (it is similar to the Zeiss Biogpn f4.5). Some 20/21mm SLR lenses are really big, though some modern ones are more compact, but not as compact as the Voigtlander.
 

petrk

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That's what I'm wondering about. Maximum resolution with incredibly good lenses and the ability attach said lenses to my Sony a7R IV are of great importance to me. (I should have mentioned this last point about attaching lenses to my Sony a7R IV.)
...
How do you shoot your Ikon ZM that gives you sharper negatives than your F100?
I too have (older) Sony A7 and use manual lenses with it: Contax CY series of primes, mostly used with 85/1.4. Other lenses are M mount, mix of ZM and Voigtlander lenses. Unfortunately no Leica lenses anymore, they were stolen. Both series are very good for what i expect in the digital world. I have got adapters infinity corrected, so I can use the M mount lenses prefocused, which is same as I do with ZM.
I had also Sigma SD1 Merrill with their incredible modern lenses, which were even better in terms of sharpness and most suitable for landscape work i did in that time, so my expectations are ballanced, if I can say. Motivation for my combination of Sony and manual film lenses is in having set of lenses for travel and vacation. It would enable me to have one collection of high quality lenses for both film and digital use.
I went to Nikon AF for flexibility, not for ultimate quality. I collected big fast zooms and use them for documentary work. I think many posters argued that technically and with good approach there is little difference between ZM and F6. As I wrote, in my case the difference is in use. I use AF SLRS as super big fast Point and Shoot.
Zeiss Ikon ZM is for deliberate work, mostly handheld. I try to have every frame thought out. I have it often prefocused with expectation of what I should have covered by the frame. I could not work this way with F100, none of lenses I have can be precisely prefocused without taking the camera to eye level. I do little landscape photography today, but I can imagine, that the ZM would be my preference for any slow speed film photography.
 
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chuckroast

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I will add that for wide angle lenses, rangefinders have a significant advantage over SLRs (e.g., they do not require retrofocus lenses as an SLR with the additional distance to accommodate a mirror assembly). Not sure if this is important to you.

My favorite lens on my Contax rangefinder is the Voigtlander [Cosina] 21mm f4. It is a great lens, and so compact (it is similar to the Zeiss Biogpn f4.5). Some 20/21mm SLR lenses are really big, though some modern ones are more compact, but not as compact as the Voigtlander.

I shoot a variety of Nikon film bodies. Both the 20mm f/2.8 and 24mm f/2.8 are very fine performers in my experience. The 35mm f/2.8 less so.

I shoot (and develop) only monochrome and have used a variety of techniques to enhance negative sharpness. But, my consistent experience is that the format itself is the real limiting factor. If you shoot something with a ton of detail - say distance tree branches in a forest - you cannot overcome the inherent limitations of the smaller negative. Even a fairly average old Mamiya 645 or TLR will outperform the finest 35mm optics from Leica, Nikon, Schneider etc., all other things being equal.
 
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manfrominternet
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I've heard that also, that any larger format than 35mm, even 645 format, produces far better results than any of the best optics for 35mm film.

I know it's not a rangefinder per se as it works via autofocus, but how do the members here in the rangefinder group feel about the Fuji GA645ZI? (I mean, minus the rear door cable that has a tendency to break thus rendering the rear lcd screen useless.) Would I maybe get better results with this equally small camera too?
 

chuckroast

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I have and love a GA645Zi with the aforementioned cabling problem. It's easy enough to work around. You may have to memorize the sequence of ASA settings if the display is wonky, but you can usually figure that out. After that, you can see f/stop and speed in the viewfinder. The only thing that can be maddening is knowing what frame you are on if the display doesn't light up all the segments.

The biggest upsides of this camera is it's portability and optics (which are just terrific). The biggest downsides are the relatively slow lens and that it's really clumsy to use in manual mode since it's kind of all fly by wire - no mechanical adjustments. That said, I've taken mine all over the US, parts of Europe and parts of Asia as my travel camera and it has delivered terrific images. It's also worth mentioning that focus can be adjusted manually if you prefer (which I do) but it's done in discrete steps not continuously like a normal mechanical focusing system.



But even 645 is s little small for my tastes so I now carry a Fuji GW690II 6x9 format camera as my travel snapshooter. The images are ridiculously good. For example here is a scan of a silver print I made from one of those 6x9 negs. The print is sharper than what you see here because scanning and downsampling for posting erodes some of the image quality, but ...
 

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I have and love a GA645Zi with the aforementioned cabling problem. It's easy enough to work around. You may have to memorize the sequence of ASA settings if the display is wonky, but you can usually figure that out. After that, you can see f/stop and speed in the viewfinder. The only thing that can be maddening is knowing what frame you are on if the display doesn't light up all the segments.

The biggest upsides of this camera is it's portability and optics (which are just terrific). The biggest downsides are the relatively slow lens and that it's really clumsy to use in manual mode since it's kind of all fly by wire - no mechanical adjustments. That said, I've taken mine all over the US, parts of Europe and parts of Asia as my travel camera and it has delivered terrific images. It's also worth mentioning that focus can be adjusted manually if you prefer (which I do) but it's done in discrete steps not continuously like a normal mechanical focusing system.



But even 645 is s little small for my tastes so I now carry a Fuji GW690II 6x9 format camera as my travel snapshooter. The images are ridiculously good. For example here is a scan of a silver print I made from one of those 6x9 negs. The print is sharper than what you see here because scanning and downsampling for posting erodes some of the image quality, but ...

I actually also have a Fuji GW690III (along with a Fuji GF670) and I readily admit that the optics are absolutely fantastic with both! The only issue is that both are fixed lenses. I typically carry around both Fuji cameras in a bag and thats pushing it a bit in the weight department a bit.

I suspect that the GA645ZI (or GS645) would be a lot better to carry around in my bag with my GF670 than the GW690III. But there you have it - even the weight of the GF670 + GW690III is too much for me to bear.

That's why I worry if the camera - say Nikon F6 - is too heavy.

If a Nikon F6 + a Nikon 28mm/35mm/50mm/and 85mm combo is too heavy bordering on medium format, I really do wonder if the Zeiss Ikon ZM equivalent might be better after all?
 

chuckroast

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I actually also have a Fuji GW690III (along with a Fuji GF670) and I readily admit that the optics are absolutely fantastic with both! The only issue is that both are fixed lenses. I typically carry around both Fuji cameras in a bag and thats pushing it a bit in the weight department a bit.

I suspect that the GA645ZI (or GS645) would be a lot better to carry around in my bag with my GF670 than the GW690III. But there you have it - even the weight of the GF670 + GW690III is too much for me to bear.

That's why I worry if the camera - say Nikon F6 - is too heavy.

If a Nikon F6 + a Nikon 28mm/35mm/50mm/and 85mm combo is too heavy bordering on medium format, I really do wonder if the Zeiss Ikon ZM equivalent might be better after all?

With respect, I think the comparisons you're trying to make are little bit like comparing apples and Hondas :wink: Let's see if I can distill the essence of the question
  • You want portability/light weight
  • You want best image quality
  • You want lens choice or a zoom
Now - and this is my opinion only - I'd argue that none of the cameras you've mentioned really meet those criteria, they're all compromises:

  • The Nikon is heavy and will be limited by format size
  • The Zeiss meets most of the criteria but is limited by format size
  • The GA690/GF670 lack lens flexibility
  • The GA645Zi meets all criteria except that the zoom range is limited and the format is still fairly small (ignoring the LCD issue)
In my mind, there is at least one other option to consider. One that I have owned in the past, own now, and have shot a ton of stuff on: A "Baby" 2x3 Graphic in any of its incarnations (Speed, Century, etc.) as long as it has a Graflok back and is in decent condition. (I would ignore the condition focal plane shutter on the Speed model because it's more-or-less useless. It was designed for photojournalist and sports shooters of the day, where the top speeds of the leaf shutters were considered inadequate and/or you wanted to use a shutterless barrel lens.)

This camera meets ALL the conditions above:

  • The camera is relatively light and lenses are similarly small/light. That camera with a 3 lens kit will weigh in well below what an F6 with a bag full of lenses does.

  • With the Graflok back you can shoot 2x3 sheet film or 120 roll film, both of which are still very much available. If I'm not mistaken there are even modern rollfilm backs newer than the Graflex RH series that this normally takes that fit into the Graflok adapter. Both Linhof and Mamiya RB come to mind as possibilities. I shoot with late model RHs though and no issues.

  • Lenses are widely available that are tack sharp, contrasty, and hold detail very well. Accessories are also widely available. There's even a guy on Etsy that is making brand new lens boards for these and the 4x5 Graphics.
This camera does have limited bellows draw, but there are very good true telephotos available for this, the most common being Schneider 180mm f/5.5 lenses. The 101mm f/4.5 Ektar in the Supermatic shutter was one of the "normal" lenses made for this camera and it's just stupid sharp. I shoot 80% of what I do on that camera with that lens. I've also got an old 65mm f/8 Super Angulon I use with it. It's a little dim to focus but works very well.

The camera usually comes with a Kalart viewfinder and the are often dirty. It's easy enough to take the cover off, clean the viewing ports and GENTLY wipe the mirrors clean. So you can use it as a viewfinder camera if you like, though I don't know how the Kalart works with lenses other than the default 101mm. There are rail stops and scales you likely could add if you wanted it to mean something for other lenses.

For the record, these cameras are NOT real field cameras. They have very limited movements, but for outdoor shooting, for the most part, that's a non-issue. I wouldn't try to do table top work with them. Then again, we're comparing this against cameras that have NO movements :wink:

Anyway, I am a HUGE fan of this camera. Among the 15 or 20 different cameras I have (and use all them, BTW), this camera probably gets the most use. The entire system is relatively light. 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 film is a transcendent format. It's small enough for the gear to be reasonably weight, but it approaches 4x5 in final image quality, With the Graflok back, you can shoot sheets or rolls which means both monochrome and color is within your grasp.

And oh, those lenses. They're cheap on eBay. Yeah, sometimes you have to get the shutters CLAed and you have to make sure you get a lens that doesn't have fog, fungus or separation in it - which is easy to do considering how many compatible lenses are out there.

So ... that's at least an option for you. Portable, larger format, many lenses and accessories available. The price is usually very reasonable, but you do have to take into account that you'll spend money on CLAs on some of these older lenses. Something to think about anyway.


Here's an example shot on my Baby Speed with that 101mm Ektar ...
 

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Craig

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In my mind, there is at least one other option to consider. One that I have owned in the past, own now, and have shot a ton of stuff on: A "Baby" 2x3 Graphic in any of its incarnations (Speed, Century, etc.)
One of his other criteria was handholdability in low light. One of the criteria was advanced metering, and no Graphic has a meter, let alone an advanced one. That is why I am suggesting a Canon SLR with one of the IS stabilized lenses.

Nothing will kill sharpness and resolution more than camera shake and motion blur, and those effects will always be greater in bigger format cameras with longer focal length lenses. A 2x3 with a 105 will show a lot more shake than a 35mm SLR with a 50mm, and if the 35mm SLR has an IS lens it's no contest.

A Canon Elan is half the weight of an F6, and a Graphic and a collection of film holders isn't light either. If you go for 35mm, there isn't a need to buy a heavy SLR, some of the "plastic fantastic" SLRs like the Canon Elans/EOS 7 or a Nikon F80 are very capable machines.

Something needs to be compromised; either it is the format size, or ability to hand hold in low light. You can't have sharp photos hand held at night with a large(er) format camera.


For meeting all of the criteria of:
-hand holding in low light
-advanced metering
-portability/light weight

The answer can only be a fairly modern 35mm SLR with the new style image stabilized lenses, and it really means only Canon or Nikon.
 
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