Thanks! Ill have to give that a try. A pre-soak always seems like it should work better for temperature control, just didn't want to find that I was washing out dyes or something.
New member printing hand-made Ilfochromes says Hi!
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davetravis said:
I did my own Ciba/Ilfochromes for many years; stopped about five years ago, but may get back into them if I decide that I don't want to spend the money and time on sophisticated enough digital equipment to turn my slides into negs.
Current Ilfochrome emulsions have been changed, so that they now offer two or three contrast grades, so I don't want to give you the formula I used very successfully for a home-brew, divided developer that controlled contrast without masking, because I can't vouch for it with the new emulsions.
Divided development, using a low-contrast Phenidone-Vitamin C based B & W paper developer offers contrast control in two ways. First, dividing the developer (developing agents in first bath, activator in second) is itself a way of controlling contrast. The amount of developing agent needed by the latent image (no more and no less) is soaked up in Bath A. In Bath B, that amount is activated, but then development stops, even if you leave the print in Bath B all day. Second, the low-contrast formula counter-acts the natural tendency of Ilfochromes to be very contrasty. Except in extreme cases, it keeps the highlights from blowing out.
And added benefit, is that you don't have to be at all precise about temperature control with divided development; your ambient room temp will work just fine. I used Ilford's own bleach and fixer for those steps. I think that if I had to resort to masking to control Ilfochrome contrast, I wouldn't bother. But when you see a well-made Ilfo, they are hard to beat.
Larry
davetravis said:
Sorry for the repeat of info in my previous post on this subject. I thought perhaps a bit of additional detail on the divided development process might be helpful. The key to both of the problems you mention above was "divided development."
The theory is simple: by separating the developer into two baths, the first with only the developing agents and the second with only the activating agents, the time/temperature factor disappears. No image appears in the first developer regardless of how long the print is in it; the latent image just absorbs the amount of developing agent that it requires. Any temperature within reason will do. The second bath activates the developing agents absorbed in the first bath, but can't activate any more than that, so the print can theoretically stay there all day, and it won't develop any further. Again, temp is not a consideration.
By concocting a low-contrast first developer bath (It was a Phenidone-ascorbic acid developer without any Hydroquinone, but with a bit of hypo), the infamous contrast buildup was controlled quite nicely, and I got very nice highlights that weren't blocked up.
As I say, I don't know whether the current emulsions have changed so much that my developer formula won't work anymore, but I may get back into it one day and find out.
Larry
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OP
OP
Hey everyone!
I just made my second 20x24 Ilfochrome using the big Jobo drum on the CPP-2.
I followed Ilfords
"Partial reuse" of 50/50 old/new P30. The second one is lighter, has less snap and shifted slightly to the magenta. I was expecting an almost perfect dupe! I'm thinking of instead just using less that the 540 ml of P30 that Ilford recommends, and just using fresh every time.
Question: Has anyone ever used the lesser Jobo amount of P30, and not the much greater "Ilfords recommends" amounts? I'm asking only about Ilfochromes.
If so, were there any problems?
I just made my second 20x24 Ilfochrome using the big Jobo drum on the CPP-2.
I followed Ilfords
"Partial reuse" of 50/50 old/new P30. The second one is lighter, has less snap and shifted slightly to the magenta. I was expecting an almost perfect dupe! I'm thinking of instead just using less that the 540 ml of P30 that Ilford recommends, and just using fresh every time.
Question: Has anyone ever used the lesser Jobo amount of P30, and not the much greater "Ilfords recommends" amounts? I'm asking only about Ilfochromes.
If so, were there any problems?
davetravis said:
I never had this problem following Ilford's partial re-use recommendations, which I almost always did. Usually, if there's a problem with the bleach, there's a sort of "solarized" look to the print rather than a color-shift. Could there have been a variation in your development step in the second print, or could there have been a drop in line voltage during the exposure stage. That would account for the lighter density and color shift.
The main thing that can go wrong with the bleach is incomplete bleaching which produces the "solarized" look. The solution is just to lengthen the time.
Larry
OP
OP
Hey Maine-iac,
It was my process! I sat the drum on the lift, and rotated for 5 minutes thinking that was the "drum and paper warm-up time." I went to a 30 second "pre-spin", then poured in the first "pre-rense." The next 3 were perfect! Thanks for the heads-up!
It was my process! I sat the drum on the lift, and rotated for 5 minutes thinking that was the "drum and paper warm-up time." I went to a 30 second "pre-spin", then poured in the first "pre-rense." The next 3 were perfect! Thanks for the heads-up!
Ilfochrome is still contrasty. The best results I hade was to over expose E6 film and underdevelope in the first developer.
The other problem is the curves cross giving highlites and shadows different color balances. Balance for the highlights and remove the slide from the enlarger. Give a 2% flash thru a 50cc cyan filter held under the lens to get rid of the red in the shadows.
Uncoated lenses work really really well. The tranys look awful, as if they are masked already, but print straight just fine. Combine with overexpose/underdevelope.
The other problem is the curves cross giving highlites and shadows different color balances. Balance for the highlights and remove the slide from the enlarger. Give a 2% flash thru a 50cc cyan filter held under the lens to get rid of the red in the shadows.
Uncoated lenses work really really well. The tranys look awful, as if they are masked already, but print straight just fine. Combine with overexpose/underdevelope.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2005
- Messages
- 3
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- 35mm Pan
Good to see such interest!
I print Ciba for a living in the UK. Supplies were indeed a bit iffy from summer 2004 until December, but are now pretty much back to normal. All the Ciba, including chemistry is now made in Switzerland, and Ilford assure me it has a long future!
A note on contrast grades: There are 3 grades of pro ciba (Ilfochrome Classic)
CPS.1k is high contrast, very similar to the original 1970's mega contrast Ciba, but not quite so harsh. I use a fair amount, lovely strong graphic colours, especially the blue, much improved on the 70's version.
CLM.1k is medium contrast. I use this for 95% of work, 95% of which needs dodging. Perfect for printing from Fuji Provia etc.
CF.1k is low contrast. Easy to print with, especially Kodachromes, but doesn't do it for me. Most labs use this as you can get away without dodging. I never use it. Rather similar to R-types, ie flat!
There is also a Cheapo RC gloss CPM.1M - nothing like the real thing again rather like R-type, and also very nasty RC pearl surface, CPM.44M, which I try and avoid. Takes huge exposure to get any life into it, and curls and jams in most processors.
I use a Hope P3X 20" processor, made in the US in the late 1980's
You can find me at www.owenboyd.com, and yes sending to USA is no problem!
I print Ciba for a living in the UK. Supplies were indeed a bit iffy from summer 2004 until December, but are now pretty much back to normal. All the Ciba, including chemistry is now made in Switzerland, and Ilford assure me it has a long future!
A note on contrast grades: There are 3 grades of pro ciba (Ilfochrome Classic)
CPS.1k is high contrast, very similar to the original 1970's mega contrast Ciba, but not quite so harsh. I use a fair amount, lovely strong graphic colours, especially the blue, much improved on the 70's version.
CLM.1k is medium contrast. I use this for 95% of work, 95% of which needs dodging. Perfect for printing from Fuji Provia etc.
CF.1k is low contrast. Easy to print with, especially Kodachromes, but doesn't do it for me. Most labs use this as you can get away without dodging. I never use it. Rather similar to R-types, ie flat!
There is also a Cheapo RC gloss CPM.1M - nothing like the real thing again rather like R-type, and also very nasty RC pearl surface, CPM.44M, which I try and avoid. Takes huge exposure to get any life into it, and curls and jams in most processors.
I use a Hope P3X 20" processor, made in the US in the late 1980's
You can find me at www.owenboyd.com, and yes sending to USA is no problem!
OP
OP
Hey Owen, thanks for sharing about the paper!
I use the ICP42 for up to 16x20, and the JOBO CPP2 for 20x24.
Great to hear we'll still be able to get supplies for the forseable future. I have used all but the low contrast. The CPM.1M is my staple for everything less than 16x. I sell at art shows/festivals around Colorado, and that really helps me improve my profit margin.
I really love the CLM.1K, and use it for that "glowing" look. I've used the pearl on some tight close-ups, and they appear to have texture. I mostly shoot Velvia, but also use some Provia. I just ordered the CPS.1K in 20x and am wondering if in your experience, will it be similar to the CLM.1K in tonal range? Will I pretty much be able to move up in size with the same images, or are their some trade-offs?
Thanks.
I use the ICP42 for up to 16x20, and the JOBO CPP2 for 20x24.
Great to hear we'll still be able to get supplies for the forseable future. I have used all but the low contrast. The CPM.1M is my staple for everything less than 16x. I sell at art shows/festivals around Colorado, and that really helps me improve my profit margin.
I really love the CLM.1K, and use it for that "glowing" look. I've used the pearl on some tight close-ups, and they appear to have texture. I mostly shoot Velvia, but also use some Provia. I just ordered the CPS.1K in 20x and am wondering if in your experience, will it be similar to the CLM.1K in tonal range? Will I pretty much be able to move up in size with the same images, or are their some trade-offs?
Thanks.
Craig said:
It will reduce the contrast, but will not produce muddy blacks. It will, however, (or at least it used to when I was printing Cibas some years ago) cause a decided shift toward yellow which needs to be corrected by the filter pack. For me, that led to interminably long times. But the fact that it worked at all inspired me to concoct my own developer, which I used in a divided fashion. The combination of a low-contrast developer that didn't shift the color balance, plus the divided development technique (see my article in the Chemistry recipes) gave me great contrast control. This was in the pre-graded Ciba era, so I have no idea whether my formula would work with the new papers that are already contrast graded.
The big advantage, as with any divided developer, is that when you separate developing agents (Phenidone, metol, et. al) from the activator (in this case sodium carbonate) the time/temperature variable ceases to be an important factor.
My Ciba developer was essentially a Phenidone, ascorbic acid formula with no Hydroquinone. HQ is a contrasty developing agent, so by leaving it out, I automatically lowered the contrastiness of the original Ciba materials. If I remember correctly, it was just Phenidone, Vit. C crystals, 10ml or so of Liquid Orthazite (benzotriazole) and about 1/8 tsp. of sodium thiosulfate. Ilford was, at one time anyway, putting a little hypo in their developer to kill contrast. I put all of this in Bath A, and Bath B was just carbonate and borax (for buffering). About a minute give or take in each bath at any ambient room temperature. No rinse in between Bath A and Bath B. You can reuse Bath A indefinitely; it doesn't become exhausted, just physically used up. Re-use Bath B until exhaustion or replenish.
In my technique, I'd start with a graduate filled with about 250 ml of Bath B. After using Bath B, I'd dump out about 1/4 of it (give or take--precision isn't important with this technique) and replenish with an equal amount of fresh. I just used garden variety Arm&Hammer washing soda and 20 mule-team borax from the grocery store for Bath B. Worked great.
Don't know how this mix works with the new papers. Haven't tried it, but maybe I'll get motivated one of these days to get back to doing some Cibas.
Larry
- Joined
- May 13, 2007
- Messages
- 8
- Format
- Multi Format
HI
I have bought an icp42 and iwd washer dryer unit, and have been given an incomplete manual with it, does anyone know where I can get a copy of the manual? I am concerend about the missing chapters offering valuable safety and maintenance advice for the new user.....
I have bought an icp42 and iwd washer dryer unit, and have been given an incomplete manual with it, does anyone know where I can get a copy of the manual? I am concerend about the missing chapters offering valuable safety and maintenance advice for the new user.....
Greetings and welcome. You would be better starting off a new thread with your question, rather than piggy-backing on an existing thread. Not everyone will read your question if you do.
Yes, I still do Ilfochromes (Cibachromes) in a
wet darkroom.
/Clay
wet darkroom.
/Clay
Books on Cibachrome:
CIBACHROME COLOR PRINT MANUAL ILFORD 1977
THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO CIBACHROME PRINTING ZIFF-DAVIS 1980
A PROFESSIONAL APPROACH TO CIBACHROME BOB PACE 1990
Bob Pace's book is the best, all are out of print. I made my first Ciba print in 1974 with the "Discovery kit"
Doyle
CIBACHROME COLOR PRINT MANUAL ILFORD 1977
THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO CIBACHROME PRINTING ZIFF-DAVIS 1980
A PROFESSIONAL APPROACH TO CIBACHROME BOB PACE 1990
Bob Pace's book is the best, all are out of print. I made my first Ciba print in 1974 with the "Discovery kit"
Doyle
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