New member printing hand-made Ilfochromes says Hi!

[davetravis]

Hi Folks! I just joined and was wondering if any of you make your own Ilfochromes (Cibacromes) in a traditional darkroom. I have a brief history of the process, if anyone is interested.
Dave.

 

[VoidoidRamone]

Hey!... another Castle Rock-er. I'm going to start doing my own color processes starting January (RA-4 though)... but I would be interested in the Cibachrome process. The only thing I know is that it is more expensive.
-Grant

 

[roteague]

Welcome Dave from Hawaii. I used to do them many years ago, back when they were called Cibachrome. I just don't have the facilities at the moment, but may go back to is someday.

 

[Donald Miller]

I did Cibachromes about 20 years ago. At that time the material was such that virtually every image needed to be masked. I don't know that this condition still exists. I don't work in color any longer. I think that if I were working in color that I would shoot transparency film and then produce a color internegative for the print basis.

 

[davetravis]

If you make it through all this, you're really interested!
A brief history of Ilfochome printing:
It is a type "R" paper/chemistry process. The prints are made directly from the slides by projection from a hand-crank enlarger. Exposing the paper can also be done by Lightjets, Chromira's...etc. There is no safelight for this process. All paper handlling must be done in total darkness. The results are called "first generation" prints, because nothing was scanned or
no inter-negative was used. It was formally known as Cibachrome, but Ilford bought the process from Ciba-Gigy (sp?) and they changed the name. At one time the prints were considered to be the most archivally stable. Ilford even has offered a 200 year guarantee, if laminated with uv protector, and keep out of direct sunlight. The archival expert researcher, Wilhelm (sp?)
predicted that Fuji crystal archive paper wil last longer. The prints are known around the world for their ultra-rich color saturation, first generation sharpness, and relatively long life.
All that being said, they are a pain in the rear to master with any consistancy. The main problem is with each new pack of paper that has a different emulsion number, the starting color balance for the complementary colors of yellow, cyan, and magenta can, and most of the times, change. That means the printer is always having to make new test prints. (mostly strips).
Another well known problem is the criticality of the time/temperature of the chemistry. A +/_ variation of only 1 degree C will affect the density and balance of the print. Another major concern that is hard to handle, is contrast control. Many printers make what are called "contrast masks" using kodak pan b&w film. This will act to block the brightest areas, while allowing the best D-Max. Another concern is the shelf life of the paper/chems. From manufature date is only about 3 years. Another concern is the ability to predictably achieve a pure white. Many times the final print will have slight, but noticeable, shifts to of the primaries. On the brighter side, the prints are easy to wash/dry. The emulsion surfaces are very tough.
The portfolio I sell at shows represents over 11 years of effort in the darkroom. This process can be very frustrating, even for me.
On a sour note, the Ilford company recently filed Chapter 7 in Sweden. Who know's how much longer the paper/chems will be available?
For a beginner to invest the money/time, at this point would be un-wise. Best to wait and see if
they close the B&W division, and salvage the color one.
I am self-taught, and began with the Jobo drums. I now use the ICP42 roller transport processor.
Many labs accross the country have stopped offering the process. I will continue the classic tradition as long as the paper/chems are available.
I am not aware of any books specifically dedicated to Ilfochome printing. Maybe if they survive, I will do one.
Hope this explains my process, and I hope to see you all down the road.
Dave.

 

[Bob Carnie]

the plant in switzerland never got into trouble. It was the UK plant that came under receivership, Ilford is now producing P3x chemistry and paper , I recievied a shipment this week and am now cleaning the processor to continue production. I produce both traditionally and digitally on this material
Always interested in reading a book based on this process.

 

[roy]

I never got on with Ciba(Ilfo)chrome although I liked the results produced in successful prints, as few as they were ! The main problem with me was colour adjustment recognition using the viewing filters and the fact that each packet required a different filter factor. I guess I did not do enough to buy a decent quantity of paper which would have given me some filtration consistency. I preferred to use Fuji reversal paper which, by and large, did not require any filtration unless the colour required an adjustment for some reason and could be processed, perhaps laboriously, in chemicals available over here. Those chemicals are not available now and I believe that the route I would have to go down to print slides would be a colour negative paper developer plus an extra stage to convert the results to positive colours. I have many slides I would like to print and I feel that this is one area where the d****** workers have the edge as they have captured and are able to print a positive image without the need for these adjustments. I am not sure if the Fuji paper I used is available either but I do stand to be corrected there.

 

[Fotohuis]

@Roy,

If you are talking about the slide R3 process, it's discontinued. No R3 paper is available anymore and also the smart Amaloco R3 transformer kit has been discontinued like the other chemical suppliers.
What's left is the Cibachrome and scanning the slide and make a RA-4 print of it.

Best regards,

Robert

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Welcome! I used to make Cibachromes, and have been looking into getting back into it with the current Ilfochrome materials.

 

[davetravis]

the plant in switzerland never got into trouble. It was the UK plant that came under receivership, Ilford is now producing P3x chemistry and paper , I recievied a shipment this week and am now cleaning the processor to continue production. I produce both traditionally and digitally on this material
Always interested in reading a book based on this process.

Hi Bob,
Do you market/sale your prints? If so, where?
I do art shows all around Colorado, and have 5 outstanding orders for paper.
I really hope the colour division doesn't fold, I've invested my entire creative life into this process!
Dave.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Hi Dave

go to my site elevatordigital.ca for info on what we do.
I believe the material will be around for the forseeable future.
As I stated we just recieved a shipment from Europe , chemicals and paper, this is a very good sign.

 

[b.e.wilson]

If you are talking about the slide R3 process, it's discontinued. No R3 paper is available anymore and also the smart Amaloco R3 transformer kit has been discontinued like the other chemical suppliers.
Robert

I guess I didn't buy several boxes of 20x24 Fuji Type-35 last month, then. Kodak has abandoned R3, but Fuji hasn't. We've had to buy the R3 chems since Kodak dropped R3000, but for me moving to R3 has been a good change.

And when Fuji abandons it, I'll move up to B&W. I hop eby then I'll know enough about the photographic arts to tackle it.

 

[b.e.wilson]

It is a type "R" paper/chemistry process. Dave.

Perhaps I'm arguing semantics where rules don't exist, but I thought Illfochrome/Cibachrome was knows an a (the?) P process (or just Ciba), as there is no reversal step, and that R chemistry all had a reversal step:

C = Chromogenic - colors originate in chemical reactions between "undeveloped" dye precursor molecules in the emulsion and a common reduced "dye developer" molecules in the color developer that reacts as it is oxidized during the silver reduction.

R = Reversal - Colors originate the same way as they do in the chromogenic process but instead of reacting with the silver exposed to light, the dye developer molecules must react with silver halide particles not exposed to light in the initial exposure. The exposed silver must be reduced first, then a second reversal exposure prepares the balance of the silver for the chromogenic reaction.

P = Ciba/Ilfo - The fully-developed dye molecules in the paper emulsion are selectively activated by light then bleached by the chemicals in part 2. We see the dye molecules felt behind. (Actually I think the process involves the activation of a third type of molecule, then that molecule acts as a sort of flag to start the bleaching proces at that location, but Ciba/Ilfo never tells anyone how their chems work).

 

[davetravis]

Perhaps I'm arguing semantics where rules don't exist, but I thought Illfochrome/Cibachrome was knows an a (the?) P process (or just Ciba), as there is no reversal step, and that R chemistry all had a reversal step:

C = Chromogenic - colors originate in chemical reactions between "undeveloped" dye precursor molecules in the emulsion and a common reduced "dye developer" molecules in the color developer that reacts as it is oxidized during the silver reduction.

R = Reversal - Colors originate the same way as they do in the chromogenic process but instead of reacting with the silver exposed to light, the dye developer molecules must react with silver halide particles not exposed to light in the initial exposure. The exposed silver must be reduced first, then a second reversal exposure prepares the balance of the silver for the chromogenic reaction.

P = Ciba/Ilfo - The fully-developed dye molecules in the paper emulsion are selectively activated by light then bleached by the chemicals in part 2. We see the dye molecules felt behind. (Actually I think the process involves the activation of a third type of molecule, then that molecule acts as a sort of flag to start the bleaching proces at that location, but Ciba/Ilfo never tells anyone how their chems work).

You are correct sir! Guess I just showed my age. I've been calling it type R
ever since I did e-6 back in the 70's. I had to remove the film from the tank and hold it next to a white light. Those days are history!
Thanks for the correction.
Dave.

 

[BruceN]

Hey Dave,
Welcome! After viewing the dustup on CNP I figured you might like it here better.

Bruce

 

[steve]

All that being said, they are a pain in the rear to master with any consistancy.

Then your technique isn't very good. Making an Ilfochrome is no more difficult than making a "C" print. Ilfochromes are sensitive to color balance but are very forgiving on exposure.

Another well known problem is the criticality of the time/temperature of the chemistry. A +/_ variation of only 1 degree C will affect the density and balance of the print.

A variation of 1 degree won't change the color balance of the print. I run my roller transport machine 5 degrees warmer than the recommended processing temperature. It doesn't affect the color balance at all. One degree will also have little effect on the print density. If you are consistent in processing, any density difference can be made up by adjusting the print exposure time.

Many printers make what are called "contrast masks" using kodak pan b&w film.

Funny, I've been using Ilford FP-4 for years to make constrast masks. Works just fine.

Another concern is the ability to predictably achieve a pure white. Many times the final print will have slight, but noticeable, shifts to of the primaries.

This is color crossover. It's always been a problem with the material. You will also see some coloration in the shadows. Not always obvious - but, it will be there.

The main problem is with each new pack of paper that has a different emulsion number, the starting color balance for the complementary colors of yellow, cyan, and magenta can, and most of the times, change. That means the printer is always having to make new test prints. (mostly strips).

Different batches of color paper always have a different emulsion color balance. You subtract the filter pack difference between the emulsion numbers and change your filtration to match. However, you must keep notes on the images you're printing, including the emulsion filter pack so that you can make the filter changes. That's just simple color printing technique. If you have a multi-print easel, you can rapidly do a color ring-around for final color correction.

This process can be very frustrating, even for me.

No need to be frustrated. Just keep accurate notes and make sure your process control is the same each time. It's no more difficult than any other type of printing - you just have to make sure your technique is consistent.

The emulsion surfaces are very tough.

You must not be using the glossy surface. It scratches if you look at it the wrong way.

On a sour note, the Ilford company recently filed Chapter 7 in Sweden.

Wrong. Ilford filed for receivership in England this is equal to a Chapter 11 filing in the United States. This allows the company to reorganize.

I am not aware of any books specifically dedicated to Ilfochome printing. Maybe if they survive, I will do one.

There was a book on Cibachrome printing called, "A Complete Guide to Cibachrome Printing" by Peter Krause and Henry Shull. It can sometimes be found used at Photoeye Bookstore.

Ctein's book "Post Exposure. Advanced Techniques for the Photographic Printer" discusses printing Ilfochrome materials.

If you insist on doing a book, I hope the information is more accurate than what is contained in your post.

 

[Claire Senft]

Ilfochrome

I have done a bit of printing from slides and a lot of print from color negatives.
If a person wants to print with Ilfochrome then I wish them luck. In fact I would advise them to get Bob Pace's book on Cibachrome even though it costs a $100.00.

Personally, I chose RA4 because:
The cost of film, processing and printing supplies are less expensive. The current RA4 papers are more archival. Although Ilfochrome has the ability, even when unwanted, to make very dramatic prints I generally prefer the rendition produced by clor negatives. A color negative film such as Konica Impresa 50 produces low to moderate contrast. It has the ability to discrimate subtle differences in hue. It has very fine grain. It has more resolution potential than any transparency film on the market. Thru the use of the Anderson method you can increase contrast substantially and thru selective latent image bleaching you can reduce contrast very much. In addition to this you have three contrast grades which allow some contrast variation. Above and beyond that you can use the same techniques in masking that is so necessary with Ilfochrome. Masking can also be used to purify colors..remove dye imperfections caused by the film and paper. Actually, if one wants to learn and use all these techniques RA4 printing allows at least as much as B&W printing.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I do a fair amount of printing from slides to cibachrome and negative to colour print. In fact today I am doing both.
As well we print digitally to both medias.
Ciba chrome comes in three contrast grades

Comparing both products done properly , I would say ciba blows the doors off RA4, colour accuracy, colour gamut, control of dodge and burn is equal.
I do like RA4 as it does have a wide lattitude and the look of the print is quite nice. Cibas are very glossy and hard to handle , but once framed they are beautiful. ( Cibas do require good lighting )
Cibas have taken a bash in the past, as they are difficult to master well.

 

[davetravis]

Steve, thanks for your forensic deconstruction of my "Brief History" rant.
I'll try and be more precise in the future.
Two questions for you.
I'll soon be making 20x24's using the Jobo CPA-2 and large drums. Have you ever printed this big?, Will I have the same problems as with the ICP42 roller transport?
Also, if you have ever printed on the poly(CLM1K), when you mounted it, how did you solve the "orange-peel effect" on the surface?
Dave.

 

[b.e.wilson]

Dave,

I print 20x24" almost exclusively, using the CPA2 and the big drum. Here are some thoughts:

1. If it's a new drum, wax the lid/drum interface. Eventually they will wear together and come off reasonably easily, but at first you'll need to put 4-5 pumps in before it blasts off. I found that by setting the drum on a folded towel, then banging on the sides of the drum while pumping the lid comes off a little easier. It will fly at first, nonetheless, when it comes off.

2. If you haven't worked with paper that big before remember that big paper creases easily. The polyethylene media is more resistant to creasing, but not completely immune. Never force the paper to do anything. It will likey crease in the attempt. When loading the exposed paper into the tube, make sure the tube it dry, roll the top egdes of the 24" dimension together so they can be pinched together in one hand, and use the free hand to guide the lower edged of the "cylinder" of paper into the tube. It might catch on an edge on the way in, which is best solved by rotating the paper, maybe a little up-down motion, to clear the obstacle (it's never much of a problem, just an annoyance).

3. If you are using the lift it's best to help support the tube on the way up. I broke a handle once lifting hard and fast.

4. 260 mL is the minimum chems you can use. Less than that and you get streaking from undeveloped paper. You loose about 30 mL from that total if the paper is not prewet. Pour liquid in slowly, as it doesn't take much overpressure in the tube to make the funnel "burp" into the drain.

5. The tube is big enough to require prpoer leveling of the tube itself, not just the red edge of the CPA. I use a torpedo level. String levels also work.

6. If ever you venture into R3 chems, a reversal exposure is easy to do with an all-around fluorescent shop light held right down the middle of the tube for 20 sec.

 

[davetravis]

Bruce,
Thanks for the advice. And while we're on the subject...
I've been trying to find a used CPA-2 on Ebay and everyone asks what the serial number is. From what I can determine, it's got something to do with #'s less than 22000 not having enough strength to rotate the big drum properly. Which do you have and did you experience any poor developement? Also, when you say pump, do you mean that hand-pump thingy to remove the lid?
Dave.

 

[b.e.wilson]

I'll look it up tonight. It's an old model, but has plenty of power to turn the biggest drum.

The pump is the footpump used to pressurize the tube to remove the lid (literally blow it off). It has a friction fit, and with so much contact area there is a lot of friction.

Currently the biggest problem I have with my CPA2 is the water pump freezing up after it sits unused for a season. One of these days I'll open it up and lube it.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I have heard a few times people trying to pump off the lids of jobo tanks, I would suggest filling the tank with water before trying to pump off the lid, the top comes off quite easily this way

 

[captainwookie]

I’ve also began to toy with Ilfochrome. However, I’m confused about one thing. Nowhere in Ilford’s instructions does it mention anything about a pre-soak. Is a one minuet pre-soak necassacry for Ilfochrome?

 

[L Gebhardt]

I’ve also began to toy with Ilfochrome. However, I’m confused about one thing. Nowhere in Ilford’s instructions does it mention anything about a pre-soak. Is a one minuet pre-soak necassacry for Ilfochrome?

I have done it both ways and both have worked fine. I don't know if there are differences as I have not tested the same exposure done both ways. I use a 30 second water soak so my chemistry volumes stay the same. This makes reusing chemicals easier for me.