New Kodak Film in 2022?

Agulliver · Jan 5, 2022

I would hazard a guess that Kodak would be best served solving their own supply and manufacturing backlog on C41 amateur films before introducing anything new....unless a new B&W film could be introduced without affecting colour production.

I would like plus-X back in 135, 120, super 8 and std 8. I can see there's a market for at least a 400ISO Ektachrome. And I'd love one of their amateur C41 films in 120 - though I am happy with the Lomography offerings which appear to be Kodacolor in origin.

Klaus Wehner · Jan 5, 2022

This is all just pure speculation!
What would be possible, what would be desirable?

to #4:
The Kodakchrome was a very complex technology, to revive this would be too complicated and too expensive. Too bad!

to #5:
All infrared films were military by-products. They are no longer needed for reconnaissance and surveillance. Therefore, there will probably be no more civilian IR film.

The Kodak film range is actually complete and nothing really important is missing.

But: the performance of the recording lenses is getting better and better. Sometime in the future, films with a better resolution (maybe 200 Lp/mm) might be necessary.
In this case, a new ISO 25/15 film with higher resolution might be useful.
Maybe based on the old Tecnical Pan?

Desirable and necessary would be a safe back paper for 120 film.

Best regards
Klaus

Agulliver · Jan 5, 2022

Yup....better backing paper so I can actually see the numbers through a ruby window would be most helpful.

Foma and Lomography branded 120 films are fine in this respect. Kodak and Ilford, less so....I can barely see anything with kodak 120 backing paper.

Klaus Wehner · Jan 5, 2022

I'm thinking of something else.
Many manufacturers currently have a problem with the black backing paper having a chemical reaction with the film emulsion.
Many films are spoiled in this way by the backing paper.
This is a problem that has existed for several years but no one seems to be able to find a solution.

Best regards
Klaus

jtk · Jan 5, 2022

I loved Kodak but ...

Henning Serger · Jan 5, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
New Kodak Film in ~~2021~~ 2022?
Time for a redo for 2022. So here is a new thread.

Well, Kodak is facing the following problems:
1. Significant difficulties in getting all the raw materials needed because of the Pandemic.
2. Problems in international shipping because of the Pandemic.
3. Even before the Pandemic the demand, especially for amateur colour negative film, has significantly surpassed their current implemented confectioning capacities.
4. Because of point 3. new investments in machinery and staff is needed. As it is high-tech, that takes time. And the pandemic makes these new investments even more difficult.
Therefore it makes much more sense for them to work and concentrate on solutions for the above mentioned problems first.

Nevertheless about a year ago Andy Church gives hints about two new products in 2021:
One that have been on the market in former times. Therefore a reintroduction.
And one product that has not been so far on the market yet. This product was introduced: The single-use-camera loaded with Tri-X.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Jan 5, 2022

Nodda Duma said:
Get the color film out into the supply chain GOSH

Yupp, Jason, that is definitely the most important problem they have to work on. Must have top-priority.

Best regards,
Henning

Don_ih · Jan 5, 2022

Klaus Wehner said:
Many films are spoiled in this way by the backing paper.
This is a problem that has existed for several years but no one seems to be able to find a solution.

The way to fix it: stop making 120 and only make 220. Supply a backiing-paper thickness black sticker to put on the pressure plate of 120 cameras and supply 120-length 220 rolls.

brbo · Jan 5, 2022

Klaus Wehner said:
But: the performance of the recording lenses is getting better and better. Sometime in the future, films with a better resolution (maybe 200 Lp/mm) might be necessary.

Highly unlikely. There will be like zero new lenses for film MF and LF cameras in the future. And those few new lenses from Leica and Voigtländer for Leica M mount won't really be sold in numbers that would justify production of ultra high resolution films. Everybody else is doing mirrorless lenses almost exclusively now and those few still made for DSLRs are mostly useless on film SLRs anyway (electronic aperture (Nikon), in-camera/software ca/distortion correction...).

brbo · Jan 5, 2022

Don Heisz said:
The way to fix it: stop making 120 and only make 220. Supply a backiing-paper thickness black sticker to put on the pressure plate of 120 cameras and supply 120-length 220 rolls.

If you are going to cut off users with cameras that rely on the red window... then the easiest solution is to just not print sh**t on the backing paper and you don't have a problem.

Henning Serger · Jan 5, 2022

Hello Klaus, my dear old friend, nice to have you finally here ,

Klaus Wehner said:
But: the performance of the recording lenses is getting better and better.

Yes, indeed! In the last 30 years huge improvements have been made. Good for us photographers.

Klaus Wehner said:
Sometime in the future, films with a better resolution (maybe 200 Lp/mm) might be necessary.

No, not necessarily. Because as film photographers we can fully benefit from the amazing modern lenses! The improvements they offer are transferred onto our current films, and clearly visible.
As you have mentioned resolution:
The "rule of thumb" which works quite well in practical terms is for our imaging chain:
1/system resolution = 1/lens resolution + 1/film resolution.
So you see immediately: With the same film you get higher resolution if you are using a higher resolving lens. And vice versa.

I have done more than 10,000 of such tests over the years in my photography test lab. And I can absolutely confirm that this is really working in that way! Better lens = better performance with the same film. Excellent for us film photographers.
Digital is different, as in most cases the resolution is limited by the sensor, by the Nyquist frequency. In film photography that problem does not exist fortunately.
Modern lenses and the highest resolving films like ADOX CMS 20 II, ADOX HR-50, TMX, Delta 100, PanF+, Acros II, Velvia 50 and 100, Provia 100F etc. are an excellent combination, offering amazing picture quality.

As an Agfa APX 25 fan (still have some ) I would like to see such a film again, too. But the films mentioned above are so good that I can live a happy photographer life with the existing films .

Best regards,
Henning

faberryman · Jan 5, 2022

Don Heisz said:
The way to fix it: stop making 120 and only make 220. Supply a backiing-paper thickness black sticker to put on the pressure plate of 120 cameras and supply 120-length 220 rolls.

What is the difference between "120-length 220 rolls" and 120 rolls? If you are suggesting having 120 rolls with backing paper only at the start and finish of the roll like 220, what about 120 cameras with red windows? Would 120-length rolls with 220 style backing paper cost more or less than regular 120 rolls? Seems like the solution to the backing paper problem is to fix the backing paper problem.

Henning Serger · Jan 5, 2022

brbo said:
Everybody else is doing mirrorless lenses almost exclusively now and those few still made for DSLRs are mostly useless on film SLRs anyway (electronic aperture (Nikon), in-camera/software ca/distortion correction...).

Well, in the last 30 years we have seen a 3-digit number of new, improved lenses (improved compared to the standards of the 70ies and 80ies) from Canon, Nikon, Minolta, Pentax, Leica, Zeiss, Cosina/Voigtländer, Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, Irix.....
Almost all these can be of course used with our film cameras. And most of them are in current production. As a Nikon SLR user I am very happy about some later / current Nikon lenses, some Sigma Art lenses and especially happy about the outstanding Zeiss Milvus (and Otus) lens line.

So there is really enough potential for us to benfit from more modern and improved lenses. For those who want to have the improvements.

Best regards,
Henning

faberryman · Jan 5, 2022

Klaus Wehner said:
I'm thinking of something else.
Many manufacturers currently have a problem with the black backing paper having a chemical reaction with the film emulsion.
Many films are spoiled in this way by the backing paper.
This is a problem that has existed for several years but no one seems to be able to find a solution.

I thought Kodak fixed its backing paper problem a couple of years ago. You occasionally hear about backing paper problems with Ilford, but they seem like isolated incidents rather than a widespread problem.

Henning Serger · Jan 5, 2022

faberryman said:
I thought Kodak fixed its backing paper problem a couple of years ago. You occasionally hear about backing paper problems with Ilford, but they seem like isolated incidents rather than a widespread problem.

Yupp, it is not a general problem.
What I hear from big distributors concerning their customer complaint rates is
- no complaints with Fujifilm 120
- extremely rare complaints with Kodak and Ilford 120
- most complaints are from Foma 120 customers, including the brands which get their 120 films converted by Foma. Their technology and QC is not on the same level as the other big three. That is no surprise and well known. It is one of the reasons why they are cheaper. They are using their market segment / niche.

Best regards,
Henning

Don_ih · Jan 5, 2022

brbo said:
cut off users with cameras that rely on the red window

faberryman said:
what about 120 cameras with red windows

The obvious solution is to fix the backing paper - but it's not the easiest solution, apparently, since it seems to happen very regularly.
Of course, the easiest solution for them is to stop making the film altogether.
I thought I would suggest some ridiculous, somewhat out-of-the-way solution - yet one that would solve the problem for the customers that matter - surely people who use cameras with red windows don't matter (this is a joke, by the way).

MattKing · Jan 5, 2022

Don Heisz said:
surely people who use cameras with red windows don't matter (this is a joke, by the way).

It may be the case that, just as it was many decades ago, the people with red window cameras are now relatively important.
The growth in 120 is most likely from enthusiasts, rather than professional and commercial users.

Don_ih · Jan 5, 2022

MattKing said:
The growth in 120 is most likely from enthusiasts

The Holga on its own is likely responsible for a very significant percentage of 120 shot over the last 15 years. And a lot of higher-end cameras are just being collected and not used.

Wallendo · Jan 5, 2022

Until Kodak catches up with current demand, I foresee no new films.

I personally would love EktaChrome E400.

The only other real gap in their lineup is a classic grain 100 ISO film, but I am happy to use FP4+ (and Fomapan 100). I doubt many users would leave FP4+ for a new XX.

Don_ih · Jan 5, 2022

Wallendo said:
The only other real gap in their lineup is a classic grain 100 ISO film, but I am happy to use FP4+ (and Fomapan 100). I doubt many users would leave FP4+ for a new XX.

There's no reason they couldn't sell their iso200 motion picture film as a still film. It's a little silly that they don't.

TheFlyingCamera · Jan 5, 2022

Not likely to happen but I'd love to see Panatomic-X brought back to fill the gap in slow emulsions.

Agulliver · Jan 5, 2022

Klaus Wehner said:
I'm thinking of something else.
Many manufacturers currently have a problem with the black backing paper having a chemical reaction with the film emulsion.
Many films are spoiled in this way by the backing paper.
This is a problem that has existed for several years but no one seems to be able to find a solution.

Best regards
Klaus

I thought the problems of the backing paper reacting with the emulsion were solved.....and part of that is the lighter ink used to print the numbers on the backing paper. I realise my eyesight is over-sensitive to red (I can see near IR, for example) but I really cannot see a thing through the ruby window with Ektar or Tri-X unless I shine a bright light right at it or have it in bright sun. I need someone else to wind the film for me! Ilford is just about visible. Fuji, Foma and Lomography branded films are easy for me.

But I would add to the voices which say that it's probably best for Kodak to concentrate on the supply issues and backlog of C41 films....unless working on bringing back a previously cancelled product or a new one would not impact this.

Sirius Glass · Jan 5, 2022

While I would like HIE and IR Ektachrome back on the market, which will not occur, I am happy with other infrared films such as Rollei IR 400.

gcoates · Jan 5, 2022

Nico Llasera keeps hinting that he has insider knowledge of news from Kodak that he can't share yet. So, I'm hopeful there might actually be a new/resurrected film stock later this year.

abruzzi · Jan 5, 2022

Wallendo said:
Until Kodak catches up with current demand, I foresee no new films.

Weren't they working on porting TMAX P3200 to 120? Does anyone know if that was cancelled? I love Delta 3200 in 120, I'd love to compare it to P3200, but I'm shooting very little 35mm these days.

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