New HC-110 Formula

[jvo]

in the 70's american car companies, practiced "planned obsolescence" so they could increase sales. that now happens as a matter of course with phones, tablets, a/c units, software and more. add photo chemicals to the list!

 

[Anon Ymous]

Re: hc-110 doesn't Excel at anything

The main advantage of hc-110 to me is it gives me the desired tonal results with Delta 400 and Tri-X. It's not the sharpest, finest grain or most shadow detail. But I like the way it looks.

That's a perfectly good reason to use HC110. At the same time, I suspect that one could get the same characteristic curve shape, or something very close, using another developer.

 

[alanrockwood]

Very elegant. I would not want to do it at home though. Also, the amount of Bromide ion will be in proportion to the SO2 which may be incorrect for the formula.

PE

That's a good point about the bromide. I think a remedy for that issue could be to use HCl (muriatic acid bought at the big box home store) for most of the conversion of sodium sulfite and use just enough HBr to get the right Br concentration. There might be other tweeks that could be done as well.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That's a perfectly good reason to use HC110. At the same time, I suspect that one could get the same characteristic curve shape, or something very close, using another developer.

I think that's probably right. What should I start with for an alternative developer that mimics HC-110's tonal results?

 

[MattKing]

The biggest normal advantage of HC-110 is/was that it could be made to replicate the results of a number of different commercial developers simply by adjusting dilution.
Kodak sales reps were able to go to their commercial lab customers who were, for example, running dip and dunk processing lines with DK-50 and replenished D-76 and .... and sell those customers on buying HC-110 (and replenisher) and using that developer, at different dilutions, to replace all the others.
And they could buy it in big quantities, use just as much as they need, and not worry about the unused portions going bad.
HC-110 dilution B has some similarities to D-76.

 

[cmacd123]

I use it because I tend to do batches of film sometimes months apart and it is easy to mix and I don't have to worry about freshness. I can measure out water at 20 degrees and just add some concentrate and get right into developing. I did try a bottle of L110 when it came out and worried about the stability. If the supply is going to be a problem, I may have to go back to D76. which will be wasteful as I will have to mix it fresh the day before I do a batch of film. and not be able to keep it until the next batch

 

[Photo Engineer]

That's a good point about the bromide. I think a remedy for that issue could be to use HCl (muriatic acid bought at the big box home store) for most of the conversion of sodium sulfite and use just enough HBr to get the right Br concentration. There might be other tweeks that could be done as well.

I would even worry about HCl. Chloride ion can be a solvent, and in the wrong concentration it could hurt the balance of desired solvent effect from Sulfite.

PE

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Gerald Koch gave an optimised formula for a long lasting concentrated MQ developer called Kalogen in this forum sometime ago. In his own experience, the concentrate survived well for over a decade, iirc, in air tight bottle. This is a water based developer concentrate and hence there's no associated complexity of measuring small volumes of viscous liquid as in the case of HC-110. It can be used as a print developer and in my own experience it works fine as first developer in B&W film reversal. Those who will miss HC-110 for its keeping properties, might want to take a look at this developer.

More info on Kalogen here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/peterbcarter/33875791150/in/album-72157644217980207/

Are there more such long lasting concentrated developers?

 

[alanrockwood]

I would even worry about HCl. Chloride ion can be a solvent, and in the wrong concentration it could hurt the balance of desired solvent effect from Sulfite.

PE

If chloride will cause a problem then another acid might be better than hydrochloric to convert sodium sulfite to sulfurous acid and ultimately to SO2. Good ol' acetic acid might be OK, or maybe citric acid, although I suspect a strong acid might be better than a weak acid. Experimentation (which I don't plan on doing) is the ultimate decider in cases like this.

 

[Anon Ymous]

I think that's probably right. What should I start with for an alternative developer that mimics HC-110's tonal results?

Matt King's post (#130) sums it nicely. And keep in mind that the same developer can behave quite differently when using different dilutions in terms of grain, sharpness, but also curve shape (tonality).

 

[Lachlan Young]

I think that's probably right. What should I start with for an alternative developer that mimics HC-110's tonal results?

DK-50, DK-60a. Several of the dilutions of HC-110 are apparently supposed to match the dev times for stock strengths or specific dilutions of these developers.

 

[Photo Engineer]

If chloride will cause a problem then another acid might be better than hydrochloric to convert sodium sulfite to sulfurous acid and ultimately to SO2. Good ol' acetic acid might be OK, or maybe citric acid, although I suspect a strong acid might be better than a weak acid. Experimentation (which I don't plan on doing) is the ultimate decider in cases like this.

I agree. I would go with Sulfuric.

 

[Ian Grant]

DK-50, DK-60a. Several of the dilutions of HC-110 are apparently supposed to match the dev times for stock strengths or specific dilutions of these developers.

It'll be interesting to hear and see what people think of the new HC-110. It's possible there may be an improvement in shadow detail/film speed. Sometime change is for the better.

Ian

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Finally got a response from Alaris. Not very surprising, interesting or verbose.

There is no change to the product use and performance.

The existing datasheet applies.

 

[cmacd123]

just got a bottle of "old" HC-110 from B&H today. But they show the new one also in stock FOR STORE PICKUP ONLY (not that again)

 

[silveror0]

Finally got a response from Alaris. Not very surprising, interesting or verbose.

IMO, their response does not address the shelf life (unless they consider it part of performance, which I doubt). How did you phrase your query?

 

[MattKing]

IMO, their response does not address the shelf life (unless they consider it part of performance, which I doubt). How did you phrase your query?

Particularly since they include no claims for shelf life of the concentrate in their data-sheet.

 

[kingbuzzie]

I just got a bottle of the made in Germany hc-110 from freestyle. It is clearly way less viscous than my two year older (unopened) bottle. Just turning them upside down I can easily see this. So something has been changing even before the "new".

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I just got a bottle of the made in Germany hc-110 from freestyle. It is clearly way less viscous than my two year older (unopened) bottle. Just turning them upside down I can easily see this. So something has been changing even before the "new".

I can corroborate this my new "old" bottle is less viscous than my old one. I thought it was maybe just the actual age but I doubt it, I remember it being quite thick to pull into the syringe in the beginning, now it is quite easy. I actually like the new-old thickness more than the old old thickness. Much faster to pull into the syringe.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

IMO, their response does not address the shelf life (unless they consider it part of performance, which I doubt). How did you phrase your query?

I asked about if the photographic results would remain the same, if the dilutions and developing times would be the same and if everything on the old data sheet still remains the same. I didn't ask about storage life -- I will now.

 

[alanrockwood]

By the way, I don't know if this is on-topic enough for this thread or not, but how does HC-110 (old or new) compare with Ilfotec HC. I have heard that they are very nearly functionally equivalent in terms of performance, development times, etc., though perhaps with some subtle differences.

 

[alanrockwood]

I agree. I would go with Sulfuric.

Sulfuric acid might also aid somewhat in removing water, since it is a fairly strong dehydrating agent. However, the issue of dehydration by Sulfuric acid may depend somewhat on whether there is a liquid-liquid phase separation (or maybe not). Anyway, as you say, sulfuric acid could be a good bet.

This brings up an interesting hypothetical way to add HBr to the brew, which is to include both MgBr and H2SO4 in the mix. hypothetically, the Mg++ and SO4-- would precipitate, leaving free HBr to dissolve in the DEA. By adding just the right amount of MgBr one could control the amound of bromide in the concentrated liquid developer.

 

[Alan Johnson]

By the way, I don't know if this is on-topic enough for this thread or not, but how does HC-110 (old or new) compare with Ilfotec HC. I have heard that they are very nearly functionally equivalent in terms of performance, development times, etc., though perhaps with some subtle differences.

https://uwaterloo.ca/fine-arts/site...iles/ilfotec-hc_film_developer_2018-06-08.pdf
In this 2018 msds, Ilfotec HC does look to be similar to the old version on HC 110 given in post 27.

 

[silveror0]

Are there simple answers to these questions I've wondered about?
1. Which ingredient(s) in the old HC-110 MSDS drive out the water?
2. Which one(s) create the viscosity?

My two semesters of college chemistry in the early '50s didn't provide enough depth for me to answer these, especially since I've forgotten most of it due to not using any of it.

 

[Photo Engineer]

There was no water to start with so none need be driven out.

The viscosity is the natural outcome of that mixture of chemicals.

PE