New DSM Claryl framing glass - anyone experience with this?

[Marco B]

Hi all,

I noticed there seems to be a new type of framing glass on the market, since 2008. It is called Claryl by the Dutch company DSM. It is supposed to have almost similar transmittance and anti-reflective properties as the high grade "museum-glass", just without the UV-protective coating (they seem to plan for another version with UV-coating as well).

http://www.dsm.com/le/en_US/claryl/html/home.htm

Due to a new type of production process, it is supposed to be considerably cheaper than the almost prohibitively expensive museum-glass.

Now that all sounds attractive, but does anyone have experience with this new type of framing glass? How does it compare to high grade museum type of glass, and does anyone know some actual prices compared to museum-glass?

Marco

 

[bill spears]

Looks very interesting. I've never liked the standard paper float picture glass as it often has a slight green tinge to it which sometimes ruins any subtle toning effects on black and white prints - it is very cheap though.

This stuff looks similar to 'Denglas' which is supposed to be totally clear due to the low (I think ?) iron content. It's ludicrously expensive though and last time I investigated it was around 7or 8 times the price.

Bill

 

[Marco B]

I've never liked the standard paper float picture glass as it often has a slight green tinge to it which sometimes ruins any subtle toning effects on black and white prints - it is very cheap though.

Exactly my feelings, ordinary glass in most cases ruins viewing pictures. All great tones are lost...

It's ludicrously expensive though and last time I investigated it was around 7or 8 times the price.

Yes, that is most artists problem too, museum glass is just too expensive... If they really managed to get close in properties, but at a significantly reduced price (maybe 2-3 times ordinary glass???), than it would be extremely interesting.

It seems DSM is doing good business with it, as they opened up a second oven just to keep up with growing demand...

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Very interesting, Marco. I work in a business that is half frame shop. I'll see if I can order some in to try. All the best. Shawn

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

grrr... I can't seem to find a US distributor. Anyone know if this is available in the states?

 

[Mark Fisher]

Just sent them an email....I'll report back

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Just sent them an email....I'll report back

Thanks, Mark!

 

[Marco B]

Hmm, well, don't get overexcited, although I had read it was supposed to be less expensive than similar type of coated anti-reflective glass, it ain't cheap either...

I have now visited a shop here in town that has it. Yes, it looks good and has high transmittance and good anti-reflective properties. Unfortunately, the woman in the shop couldn't tell me the price, her boss is there tomorrow and he knows. She did warn me it was still expensive though, something confirmed by this:

I now dug up this FAQ from what I suppose is the UK distributor:

http://www.arqadia.co.uk/commerceportal/siteimages/clarylfaq.pdf

Note the first sales note:

"By selling ®Claryl picture glass you are adding value for both you and the customer. By simply replacing 10sq meters of window glass with ®Claryl, you can earn up to an extra £1000."

And that's the extra price, so it still sells for over £100 / sq meter... does anyone of you have a comparative current price for other high grade coated framing glasses (e.g. ClearColour)?

And it is in this ad sentence they mention it's supposed to be cheaper, but is it? :confused:

"Similar products are more expensive and therefore not within everybody’s price range. ®Claryl offers such great value for money that many customers will treat themselves."

 

[Marco B]

And here's a interesting thread about the new Claryl glass on the Framers forum:

http://theframersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2944&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Note the remarks about cleaning too, the woman in the shop mentioned they had difficulties cleaning it with their regular TruVue glass cleaner, but obviously, TruVue has a different coating, so their cleaning solution might not be so suitable for this new glass.

On the positive site about price, a remark from one of the posters there:

"First impressions are very favourable: lots of the benefits of Museum, but without the scary price tag!"

But I still would like to hear a real comparative price. What does ClearColour or TruVue cost per sq meter at the moment?

Marco

 

[bill spears]

http://www.lionpic.co.uk/catalog/Schott-Mirogard,376.aspx

A UK supplier of Schott Mirogard which I think is an equivalent product to the claryl.
I believe Schott glass is a German product and is used in high end lens filters such as Heliopan and B+W ?

 

[Marco B]

Yes, it's mentioned in the Framers forum thread to. Well, compared to that distributor price, which seams to be for about 5 sq. meter (as it is for a box of 5 sheets of 35x48 inch), it still remains the question if that new Claryl is actually significantly cheaper...

I will try and ask tomorrow, when the shop owner is back, to get a real sense of the difference in retail price for an ordinary customer of a framing shop, if any...

 

[Mark Fisher]

FYI - I did get an email back from them saying they hope to have US distribution in place in September. You can contact them to find someone close to you. I suggested that they also have an internet source like Frame Destination just to help those without a local framing shop.

 

[Marco B]

Hi all,

So far the hype about cheaper anti-reflection coated framing glass... :rolleyes:

I now spoke to the shop owner. He at first gave me a price of 150 Euro / sq meter, without tax~! This was including a fee for cutting. But he told me he needed to look it up properly for an exact price indication, and he is going to phone me on Monday.

However, he also gave me a price of about 240 Euro / sq. meter for Tru Vue "museumglass" with the highest UV protection using a separate coating. Now, compared to that astronomical price, the Claryl may seem "cheap" :rolleyes: . But he also talked about Tru Vue anti-reflection coated glass, without UV coating, being about 175 Euro, meaning the Claryl (which also doesn't feature an UV coating), would be only a meagre 25 Euro/ sq. meter cheaper, so just 15%. DSM probably saved that on energy costs, as that is one of the main benefits in the new production process if I read it well...

Anyway, I can hardly call that a price-breakthrough despite what DSM was claiming... I really had hoped for something better, as this type of glass is very desirable for BW photography...

But if any other people have real world figures for the different comparative types of glasses, including Claryl, post it here, as this shop owner is always quite vague in his quotes to say the least...

Marco

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

FYI - I did get an email back from them saying they hope to have US distribution in place in September. You can contact them to find someone close to you. I suggested that they also have an internet source like Frame Destination just to help those without a local framing shop.

Thanks Marco and Mark. I'll take another look around in September and see if I can purchase from any of our distributors.... and if so what the price is going to be here in the US. Shawn

 

[Marco B]

Guys, I now have some more definite, and I think relatively good news. The framing shop owner has given some new quotes, here they are:

- Claryl: 100 euro / sq. meter
- Tru Vue UV AR (70% UV blocking): 170 euro / sq. meter
- Tru Vue Museumglass (98% UV blocking): 250 euro / sq. meter

Please note that all of these glass types have the desirable high transmittance (>98.5%), low reflection (<1.5%) properties!

Claryl, contrary to the other two glass types, doesn't feature a UV coating, and probably blocks only 30-40% of UV, but it does have the anti-reflection properties of museumglass...

All prices include a small fee for cutting to size, but NO tax. (add 20% for a regular retail price).

But it does seem Claryl might be a cheaper alternative than! (as long as you are not after high UV protection).

Marco

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Thanks for the update, Marco!

 

[Marco B]

Yes, it sounds good, however, if anyone can confirm the relative price differences (absolute prices can very greatly from country to country, the Netherlands is relative expensive, whereas the US tends to be quite a bit cheaper with many products), than that would still be great to hear...

Post here if you have some real price quotes for the new Claryl versus other types of low reflection coated AR framing glasses.

Marco

 

[cmo]

Some months ago I made a side-by-side comparison. In my eyes, there is a big difference between the Claryl glass and real "Schott" museum glass, branded "Mirogard". It is virtually invisible and does not change the look of an image at all. The Claryl is cheap but does not come close to this. It's something in between the real cheap "anti-reflective" glass and the real thing.
Maximum UV protection will not be important for most applications: normally you show images inside a building. There are glass windows that already eliminate most UV light, then you have a second glass in front of the picture, and even the worst glass will filter most of the UV light.

For my exhibitions with about 80 frames 60x80cm I could neither afford any of those, but at home I have my very best images behind museum glass. After having spent a fortune in a framing shop I found out that it is produced here in the city of Mainz in Germany:

http://www.schott.com/special_applications/german/products/non_reflective_glass/mirogard/

English:
http://www.us.schott.com/architectu...ive_glass/mirogard/?highlighted_text=mirogard

Maybe they sell directly, but probably such a factory will ask for a unit of trading that goes beyond an amount what an average photographer will ever think about.

 

[Marco B]

Hi CMO,

Thanks for your input. I know how beautiful real expensive museumglass can be. I have four prints (two color, two B&W) hanging in my house framed behind museumglass. Like you say, the glass is virtually invisible, only a slight greenish tint of the coating can be seen under direct lighting in some cases.

But it is just so expensive! Any cheaper alternative on the market that could do a much better job than standard glass, even if it is not "museum grade", I think is welcome.

But I must admit I would like to see them site-by-site once too, to see how the new Claryl does. If I remember well, DSM states the glass to have a slightly less good anti reflection too, but still close to museumglass. And of course, there is the bleuish anti-reflection coating. But anti-reflection means a coating, and inevitably a coating means an ever so slightly visible colorcast (I have seen AR glasses with pinkish, green, and now with Claryl with bleuish tints).

Anyway, if because of budget limitations the only alternatives are:

- Ordinary framing glass
- Sanded or chemically etched "anti-reflection" glass
- Claryl

I would go for Claryl instantly from what I have seen as a sample in the framing shop...

But more experiences and opinions are welcome here!

Marco

 

[cmo]

Well, I would expect that the margins of framing shops on museum glass are at least 30-50%. Maybe an omnibus order of several users would drive museum glass prices down enough to achieve acceptable prices

 

[Marco B]

That is not such a bad idea actually if all the people involved are living close together. If one of them has an officially registered business, the might even be able to buy at distributor prices... But I am not sure if it could really be done practically, and if a distributor would accept it.

 

[Marco B]

Ok guys,

As I was really interested to see the difference with high grade museumglass, I have now bought a small piece of Claryl that fitted a frame in my house currently carrying museumglass. Please note that I have forgotten the make of this museumglass, but I do know it is of the highest grade anti-reflection and UV coated. It might be Tru Vue, ClearColour or Schott glass...

I think I can now confirm CMO's observations, although in a slightly more positive form:

- The coating of Claryl is actually not so much bleu-ish, but purplish
- Under the worst kind of lighting conditions (direct light of a window coming from the back when you are viewing it), the museumglass definitely has the edge, as the Claryl's coating will show up more clearly than the almost neutral coating of the museumglass. In this kind of situation, the museumglass wins.
- However, under more favourable lighting conditions (and this will be most of the cases), the Claryl does very good, and is almost indistinguishable from the museumglass. The glass is virtually invisible than, as with museumglass.
- When viewing the framed photo from an odd angle (<45 degrees), I have the distinct feeling the anti-reflection of Claryl is actually working slightly better than that of the museumglass. If I remember well, DSM claimed the coating to have some of the widest "viewing angles". There may be some truth in this, although the difference is small compared to museumglass.
- I was slightly worried that the coating might affect the "colour" or warmth of the image and used matt, causing a cooling down. However, when viewing under favourable lighting conditions, I can now state that the Claryl's glass doesn't visibly negatively affect the image or matt colour. In fact, I couldn't see the difference in matting colour (broken white) between the Claryl and the museumglass. So this is positive.

So what is my end-verdict?

- If you are going to display a number of photos under the worst kind of lighting conditions, and you have an unlimited budget, well, than by all means get the highest grade museumglass, as you will be slightly better off with displaying your photos.

- If, however, your budget like mine is limited, but you do want good high transmittance framing glass with more than acceptable anti-reflection to show off your work in the best possible way, than Claryl is definitely worth considering taking into account it's significantly lower price. In fact, since a week or two I know I will have an upcoming exhibition, and I am seriously going to consider framing in Claryl.

Please do note again Claryl doesn't feature an UV coating (yet), so watercolor paintings etc. might still be better off with museumglass.

Marco

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Thanks for the in depth review and bringing this to our attention, Marco! I'm definately going to order in a bit if it does become available in the US this fall.

 

[bill spears]

Yes - interesting to hear these observations and thanks for the research.
I don't think the lack of a UV coating is too much an issue when pictures are mostly displayed indoors and fine prints are usually (should be)archivally toned aswell.
I'll be eager to give it a try if I can source it.

 

[Akki14]

Have just ordered this for a platinum print I'm having framed. Should be back in 2 weeks so I can give my verdict then. It wasn't too costly and "museumglass" wasn't an option at this framers.