New Cyanotype inconsistent results on Arches Platine

[jpaciulli]

Hello! I have been working in Cyanotype for a while and recently switched to The New Cyanotype Solution - Ware's Formula from Bostick and Sullivan and am applying it with a Jack Richeson brush to Arches Platine paper. I am getting wildly inconsistent results between prints and am wondering if anyone has any insights as to why. I've attached a pic of some resent results as well as a pic of the prints while they are exposing. The prints that end up looking washed out with big streaks also expose very slowly and never fully invert. The color of the emulsion also looks more green than blue while it is exposing on the prints that don't work. I've controlled every step of this process aside from my hand movements while applying the solution, so I'm really at a loss as to what is going on here. I am only using paper, emulsion, water and a diluted peroxide wash at the end.

 

[fgorga]

Hello! I have been working in Cyanotype for a while and recently switched to The New Cyanotype Solution - Ware's Formula from Bostick and Sullivan and am applying it with a Jack Richeson brush to Arches Platine paper. I am getting wildly inconsistent results between prints and am wondering if anyone has any insights as to why. I've attached a pic of some resent results as well as a pic of the prints while they are exposing. The prints that end up looking washed out with big streaks also expose very slowly and never fully invert. The color of the emulsion also looks more green than blue while it is exposing on the prints that don't work. I've controlled every step of this process aside from my hand movements while applying the solution, so I'm really at a loss as to what is going on here. I am only using paper, emulsion, water and a diluted peroxide wash at the end.

First a disclaimer... I have no experience with the new cyanotype chemistry and no recent experience with Platine. However, I do have much experience with the traditional chemistry.

That said... Make sure that you are coating the same (and proper) side of the paper. For many papers there is no difference between the two sides of the sheet. However, Chris Anderson's paper chart (https://www.alternativephotography.com/massive-paper-chart/) says that Platine is surface sized only on one side.

I would also consider trying a different paper or two or three!

It seems paradoxical but cyanotype often seems to work better on less expensive water color papers than it does on the 'fancy' papers made specifically for alt process printing.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I am getting wildly inconsistent results between prints and am wondering if anyone has any insights as to why.

I would suggest talking to the seller and check if other users have faced similar issues with this batch of sensitiser.

 

[BHuij]

I had a similar experience with New Cyanotype and Hahnemuhle Platinum Rag. I have since learned that other people struggled with the same combo. I think New Cyanotype might just be extremely picky about papers in a way that isn't (yet) particularly well-documented. Even more so than regular cyanotype, which of course wants unbuffered, neutral-or-acidic pH paper.

 

[koraks]

Welcome to Photrio @jpaciulli !

New Cyanotype is finicky compared to Classic. Three suggestions, which partly expand on and confirm what's been said already:
1: Try a different paper. This chemistry just won't play nice with many papers.
2: Try acid-soaking the paper you use first (then wash & dry). You could use citric or sulfamic acid, although other acids will work OK, too. A weak dilution for a few minutes is all it takes; then wash out the acid.
3: I find that to get a good tonal scale with New Cyanotype it helps to give the print an initial wash in hydrochloric/muriatic acid; this can be very dilute (e.g. 0.1% or so).

Given the variability you're seeing across prints, I would look into the paper in particular; see earlier responses above.

 

[fgorga]

Welcome to Photrio @jpaciulli !

New Cyanotype is finicky compared to Classic. Three suggestions, which partly expand on and confirm what's been said already:
1: Try a different paper. This chemistry just won't play nice with many papers.
2: Try acid-soaking the paper you use first (then wash & dry). You could use citric or sulfamic acid, although other acids will work OK, too. A weak dilution for a few minutes is all it takes; then wash out the acid.

If examined closely, you will notice that papers with a carbonate buffer (which is many of them) will actually fizz when added to a tray of weak acid. The carbonate reacts with the acid producing carbon dioxide. Soak the paper just long enough for the fizzing to stop, as mentioned above 3-4 minutes is all that it takes.

3: I find that to get a good tonal scale with New Cyanotype it helps to give the print an initial wash in hydrochloric/muriatic acid; this can be very dilute (e.g. 0.1% or so).

Yes, this works for traditional cyanotype as well. I use a tray of 10-15% vinegar (about 1% acetic acid) as my first wash and reuse it until it gets quite blue.

Given the variability you're seeing across prints, I would look into the paper in particular; see earlier responses above.

Agreed. But the more I think about it, the original problem is likely the asymmetry of Platine. It is only surface sized on one side.

 

[aconbere]

I like the surface sizing theory, hopefully that nips it in the bud. Certainly I and others have quite a bit of experience printing new cyanotype on Arches Platine and haven’t had any issues with the paper. But while we’re here dropping new cyanotype advice…

I’ve found it is very sensitive to the humidity of my paper. If the humidity is too low the print ends up blotchy. Below 30% relative humidity I humidify the paper on a screen between two trays for 30 min before coating.

Of course this runs this risk over over humidifying which also results in uneven coating. I found that 1 drop of 5% tween20 per ml of sensitizer was sufficient to resolve that issue (and didn’t compromise my print in lower humidity so I always add it).

Like others I acidify my first wash, I use citric acid 10g/L because it is cheap and plentiful and not nearly as nasty as hydrochloric.

I’ve actually started acidifying my finally wash because I would often get a little bleeding out of the blacks in the final wash. I suspect my tap water is a little alkaline and so I’ve recently started doing a final wash of just 5g/L citric acid then a short rinse in tap water. This has stopped the bleeding.

To my eye the final print (2nd picture) hasn’t reached the dmax that new cyanotype is capable off. If you wanted another thing to look into.

 

[jpaciulli]

I like the surface sizing theory, hopefully that nips it in the bud. Certainly I and others have quite a bit of experience printing new cyanotype on Arches Platine and haven’t had any issues with the paper. But while we’re here dropping new cyanotype advice…

I’ve found it is very sensitive to the humidity of my paper. If the humidity is too low the print ends up blotchy. Below 30% relative humidity I humidify the paper on a screen between two trays for 30 min before coating.

Of course this runs this risk over over humidifying which also results in uneven coating. I found that 1 drop of 5% tween20 per ml of sensitizer was sufficient to resolve that issue (and didn’t compromise my print in lower humidity so I always add it).

Like others I acidify my first wash, I use citric acid 10g/L because it is cheap and plentiful and not nearly as nasty as hydrochloric.

I’ve actually started acidifying my finally wash because I would often get a little bleeding out of the blacks in the final wash. I suspect my tap water is a little alkaline and so I’ve recently started doing a final wash of just 5g/L citric acid then a short rinse in tap water. This has stopped the bleeding.

To my eye the final print (2nd picture) hasn’t reached the dmax that new cyanotype is capable off. If you wanted another thing to look into.

Thank you! I imagine that my problem might be the humidity since I'm newly in the high desert and the humidity in my garage where I coat them is generally around 30%. So first you humidify first and then add the tween to the emulsion before coating the paper? I've been trying to keep my process to as few steps as possible, but this seems like an easy enough addition.

 

[aconbere]

Thank you! I imagine that my problem might be the humidity since I'm newly in the high desert and the humidity in my garage where I coat them is generally around 30%. So first you humidify first and then add the tween to the emulsion before coating the paper? I've been trying to keep my process to as few steps as possible, but this seems like an easy enough addition.

I would usually humidify the paper in the morning before I printed. I’d just stack up what I planned to use and sit it on a screen over one of my print trays filled with room temp water with another try turned over on top. You’ll be able to feel the difference in the paper when it’s humidified. 30 min was usually enough for me but I didn’t experiment.

When prepping my sensitizer I measure out the volume I need for a print, then add one drop of 5% tween20/ml (and one drop of 20% citric acid). Then proceed to coat my paper with that mixture.

I got the tween20 on amazon, I suspect all the cheap cosmetics and food safe tween/polysorbates are the same. Mine seems fine.

 

[jpaciulli]

I would usually humidify the paper in the morning before I printed. I’d just stack up what I planned to use and sit it on a screen over one of my print trays filled with room temp water with another try turned over on top. You’ll be able to feel the difference in the paper when it’s humidified. 30 min was usually enough for me but I didn’t experiment.

When prepping my sensitizer I measure out the volume I need for a print, then add one drop of 5% tween20/ml (and one drop of 20% citric acid). Then proceed to coat my paper with that mixture.

I got the tween20 on amazon, I suspect all the cheap cosmetics and food safe tween/polysorbates are the same. Mine seems fine.

Great. I'm going to try humidifying and just ordered some tween. One last question do I also need to add the citric acid to the sensitizer? How does that play a role? And does it work to buy food grade citric acid and make my own solution? Thanks so much for all of this insight!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I agree with koraks in that the New Cyanotype is finicky...even mixing it from scratch. When it worked it was quite nice. I always preferred to soak the paper (Arches Platine included) in a bath of distilled water, then hanging up to dry before coating. Yes, Tween 20 (or even Photo-Flo) for papers straight from the package, instead of presoak.
At the end of the day, I went back to the classic recipe.

 

[aconbere]

Great. I'm going to try humidifying and just ordered some tween. One last question do I also need to add the citric acid to the sensitizer? How does that play a role? And does it work to buy food grade citric acid and make my own solution? Thanks so much for all of this insight!

To clarify! I did not come up with the addition of tween or citric acid to the sensitizer. Rather I was just following Mike Ware’s (creator of New Cyanotype) recipe!

https://www.mikeware.co.uk/downloads/CyanoWork.pdf

The document and related materials are worth a passing read.

 

[jpaciulli]

Thank you all! I'm going to try a couple of prints with just humidity added today, and then I'll try the tween and citric acid once they arrive. I have taken a look at Mike Ware's recipe documentation in the past, but his scientific way of structuring language made it difficult for me to follow. I really appreciate everyone's insights and experiences - it's so helpful.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I have taken a look at Mike Ware's recipe documentation in the past, but his scientific way of structuring the language made it difficult for me to follow.

You might have already seen it, but a simpler writeup on New Cyanotype is available here: https://www.mikeware.co.uk/mikeware/New_Cyanotype_Process.html

 

[koraks]

Yes, this works for traditional cyanotype as well. I use a tray of 10-15% vinegar (about 1% acetic acid) as my first wash and reuse it until it gets quite blue.

This is another area where New Cyanotype and the classic version are not necessarily the same. I ran into this last year myself: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...surprisingly-short-curve-high-contrast.206252 Acetic or citric acid can produce inconsistent and problematic results with New Cyanotype.
Thanks to @nmp who had the key to the issue.

At the end of the day, I went back to the classic recipe.

In all honesty, especially if you can tailor the negative to the process, there's very little wrong with classic cyanotype. It has great compatibility with many papers and tends to produce consistent results with easily obtained bulk materials. I understand the caveats Ware mentions and from a chemical viewpoint I suppose he's entirely correct. But from a practical viewpoint, I'm really not so sure about the superiority of New Cyanotype - especially in the light of the many questions and issues people have run into with it over the years. Mind you, this is also part of the reason for his later development of Simple Cyanotype which supposedly (I haven't tried it) overcomes some of the issues of the New variant.