New CatLabs Color 120 Film

faberryman · Jun 9, 2023

MCB18 said:
They have. This is not a new concept by any means.

Rollei has been doing it for years, they respool Agfa Aviphot. Astrum/Svema respools Tasma or agfa. Silberra film is almost certainly aero film, if not from Kodak, then from Tasma or Agfa. Probably the most widely known example is Santacolor. Both Rae 1000 and Color 100 are respooled areal surveillance stocks. There are many other places that do this, including me, who is offering surplus Aviphot 200 in MF and sheets on an extremely small scale.

People have been buying surplus or fresh areal film for many years, and packaging it in-house or with Shanghai or Foma. This business model is well explored, and it works well, so folks are happy to sell the stuff. And people are willing to buy it, because even though it might be cheaper to find surplus bulk film online, people don’t want to spend time in the dark making and packing film, they just want to shoot it.

I should have been clearer. I meant why wasn't the respooling of black and white and color aerial reconnaissance film done during the heyday of film, say 1960-2000, if the film is so great and all?

The only thing I remember being respooled back then was color motion picture film. There was a company that sold it by the roll inexpensively, you had to send it to them for ECN2 processing and remjet removal, and then they would send you a free roll with your prints, which of course you had to send back to them for processing, and on and on.

BrianShaw · Jun 9, 2023

faberryman said:
I think it has to do with making money. And a surplus of black and white and color aerial reconnaissance films.

As far as black and white aerial reconnaissance film, I do not try it because it does not have the characteristics I am looking for in a black and white film. As far as color aerial reconnaissance film, I do not try it because I do not shoot color negative film. I have never shot color negative film. I used to shoot color transparency film and make Cibachrome prints, but I haven't done that in decades.

Please post your photos with this color film from CATLabs. Who knows, your results may convince me to give it a try. Did you ever try CatLabs X Film 320 Pro black and white aerial reconnaissance film?

Yes... money and exploiting affordable/available materials... good motives for a merchant that wants to expand their business, or just stay in business!

I'm not all that interested in aerial films even though I shoot a lot of color. Portra and Gold are the films that meet my needs. FP4+ meets my B&W needs so never shot any CatLabs X 320. But I did try the CatLabs 80 ASA 4x5 film. It was just okay... nothing to make me keep using the rest of the box.

It might not be that the film really is "all that great" but it is available. That might be the primary motive... in addition to profit.

I'd accept your challenge but recognize a losing battle when I see one. Like you... mostly commenting on human nature and the whimsical nature of photography industry/forums in these threads.

MattKing · Jun 9, 2023

faberryman said:
[mod edit]

One thing puzzles me a little: if these black and white and color aerial reconnaissance films are so great, how come no one respooled and offered them to the unsuspecting public before? Think of the decades of creative photography that have been lost due to the unavailability of these films.

The "greatness" of these offerings turns on their relative availability and economy in times where "normal" films can be very expensive and hard to find.
In times of yore, when $2-$4 could buy you a roll of Kodak Gold from the store at the corner, there was no market rationale for such things.
I was in a photographic retailer's store the other day - one who hadn't sold any film for years, but have recently started doing so again - and a 5 pack of fresh 135-36 Portra 400 was $140 CDN plus tax.
This is a store (Broadway Camera) that is an authorized Leica dealer - and probably sells a lot from that line. They also sell medium format digital.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 9, 2023

Not sure why people find it necessary to keep banging on about rebadged film. If it bugs you so much, don't use it. Simple. Now where is that RolleiIRSuperpan200Retro80 in this stuffed to the gills, freezer??

Sirius Glass · Jun 9, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
Not sure why people find it necessary to keep banging on about rebadged film. If it bugs you so much, don't use it. Simple. Now where is that RolleiIRSuperpan200Retro80 in this stuffed to the gills, freezer??

If they follow your advice than they would have nothing to bitch about.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 9, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
If they follow your advice than they would have nothing to bitch about.

I'm sure they would find something

faberryman · Jun 9, 2023

MattKing said:
I was in a photographic retailer's store the other day - one who hadn't sold any film for years, but have recently started doing so again - and a 5 pack of fresh 135-36 Portra 400 was $140 CDN plus tax.

Yes, Canadian film prices are crazy. That same 5-pack of Portra 400 is $74.95, or $14.99/roll with free shipping in the US at B&H.

For respooled Kodak Aerocolor:

CATLabs X Color 100 is $11.90/roll plus shipping at Freestyle (price is for 120; 35mm is not yet available).
Washi Color X is $15.99/roll plus shipping at Freestyle.
Film Flic Elektra 100 is $14.99/roll plus shipping at Freestyle.
Popho Luminar 100 was $11.71/roll plus shipping at Propo Camera Co., but is out of stock.

There may be other respoolers.

You'll have to work out the tax and shipping cost for yourself to determine your savings, if any.

I know every dollar counts, but respooled Kodak Aerocolor doesn't really look like a bargain to me. Of course, if you like the color palette, that may trump price.

MattKing · Jun 9, 2023

faberryman said:
Yes, Canadian film prices are crazy. That same 5-pack of Portra 400 is $74.95, or $14.99/roll with free shipping in the US at B&H.

Well, that equates to $100 CDN, and if we buy more than $99 USD of product, the shipping to Canada is also free.
So the difference is 40%, and B&H prices are not necessarily appropriate in many ways as a comparison against retail store prices.
But yes, Canadian prices are high. And even then, there is very little stock.

AnselMortensen · Jun 9, 2023

I just ordered a 5-roll pack of CatLabs color 100 direct from CatLabs...$55 + tax + shipping = $68.27, so $13.64/roll after all's said & done.

Helge · Jun 9, 2023

faberryman said:
[mod edit]

One thing puzzles me a little: if these black and white and color aerial reconnaissance films are so great, how come no one respooled and offered them to the unsuspecting public before? Think of the decades of creative photography that have been lost due to the unavailability of these films.

Done for years. Kodaks official versions was Aerochrome, HIE and Tech Pan. But lot of other industrial emulsions has been released on the public. SFX is a traffic film. Agfa Superpan 200 is now a “Rollei” product, but was on the market long before Maco invented “Rollei”.
All super fine ISO 20 film that needs a special developer? Micro film.

faberryman · Jun 9, 2023

Helge said:
Done for years. Kodaks official versions was Aerochrome, HIE and Tech Pan. But lot of other industrial emulsions has been released on the public. SFX is a traffic film. Agfa Superpan 200 is now a “Rollei” product, but was on the market long before Maco invented “Rollei”.
All super fine ISO 20 film that needs a special developer? Micro film.

Again:

faberryman said:
I should have been clearer. I meant why wasn't the respooling of black and white and color aerial reconnaissance film done during the heyday of film, say 1960-2000, if the film is so great and all?

The only thing I remember being respooled back then was color motion picture film. There was a company that sold it by the roll inexpensively, you had to send it back to them for ECN2 processing and remjet removal, and then they would send you a free roll with your prints, which of course you had to send back to them for processing, and on and on.

Don_ih · Jun 9, 2023

faberryman said:
why wasn't the respooling of black and white and color aerial reconnaissance film done during the heyday of film

And @Helge was saying the manufacturers were doing it themselves. There were multiple manufacturers of lots of different film, back in the days of yore, yet some people still wanted to go take pictures of flowers with copy film. But - hey! - copy film was being manufactured and sold in 100' lengths at the time. Now? There are about 6 companies making film, no one is making copy film, only two companies make film faster than 400, pretty much only one company is reliably making colour film of any kind.

foc · Jun 10, 2023

MattKing said:
In times of yore, when $2-$4 could buy you a roll of Kodak Gold from the store at the corner, there was no market rationale for such things

This sums it up exactly.

Now that "normal" colour films are in short supply, there is a market for non standard C41 films.

IMO once they produce an image and the colours are fairly ok, people will go for it. In fact, sometimes I think the quirkier the colours the better for the selected market.

Regarding B&W, there is always a market for something different as well as the array of private labels on the cassette of the few known manufacturers.

faberryman · Jun 10, 2023

MattKing said:
But yes, Canadian prices are high. And even then, there is very little stock.

Is that because the Canadian distributors are gouging the retailers who, of necessity, are passing said gouging on to the consumer?

MattKing · Jun 10, 2023

faberryman said:
Is that because the Canadian distributors are gouging the retailers who, of necessity, are passing said gouging on to the consumer?

I think it is a combination of factors that tend to reinforce each other. The low volumes mean the prices are high, which means the volumes and stock levels at the distributor level are low. And with no stock on hand, retailers have trouble getting stock to respond to demand.
Many people also buy from the US internet based sources, which means that those Canadian retailers who try to compete on the internet are at a disadvantage.

Agulliver · Jun 11, 2023

There is certainly a market for film, especially colour film, that is both in stock and not too expensive. It might be something a bit unusual, not originally intended for regular photography, but if it's not ridiculously priced and is available then people will buy it.

Rudeofus · Jun 12, 2023

Don Heisz said:
I'd forgotten about that film. That must be what it is. Wonder how "almost colourless base" translates in reversal.

In reversal it translates to "you can even think about projecting it". Note, that the base color is not inverted in reversal processing.

Don_ih · Jun 12, 2023

Rudeofus said:
the base color is not inverted in reversal processing

Well, projected, you'd grow accustomed to the base colour (if it's slight) after looking at it a while. Sorta.

Rudeofus · Jun 12, 2023

Don Heisz said:
Well, projected, you'd grow accustomed to the base colour (if it's slight) after looking at it a while. Sorta.

And if it's not slight, then (e.g. with Kodak Portra films developed to spec) you have a Dmin around 1 in one color channel, and even if your eyes are grand masters of color correction, a Dmin of 1 turns a mighty 1000W light bulb into a measly 100W bulb.

braxus · Jun 18, 2023

faberryman said:
Yes, Canadian film prices are crazy. That same 5-pack of Portra 400 is $74.95, or $14.99/roll with free shipping in the US at B&H.

MattKing said:
Well, that equates to $100 CDN, and if we buy more than $99 USD of product, the shipping to Canada is also free.
So the difference is 40%, and B&H prices are not necessarily appropriate in many ways as a comparison against retail store prices.
But yes, Canadian prices are high. And even then, there is very little stock.

This is why I now buy all my film supplies from B&H. Before that it was Freestyle, but their high shipping costs negated any savings. I find Canadian retailers are pretty much double the listed US dollar value, not including the exchange cost. You do save around 40 percent buying from B&H. The only exception to all this is buying Ilford film from the Canadian warehouse direct. In that case it comes out cheaper than even B&H, as their Canadian pricing still comes out cheaper, shipping isn't expensive, and you save on one of the two taxes normally charged.

Roger Cole · Dec 30, 2023

MCB18 said:
If you shoot through 4,500 4x5 or 2,570 5x7 sheets in a week, you have some serious talent.

That doesn't take talent, just going through the motions a lot. If you get even 1/4 of those as decent photographs though, I'll be impressed!

Come to think of it, that's still 642 4x5 sheets a day and I'm not sure I could do that even with identical exposures of the same subject. Just swapping the filmholders and re-cocking the shutter, pulling the slide etc. Plus unless you have at least 321 holders you're going to have to stop to unload exposed sheets and reload with fresh.

abruzzi · Dec 31, 2023

Roger Cole said:
Plus unless you have at least 321 holders you're going to have to stop to unload exposed sheets and reload with fresh.

Easier with 107 Grafmatics—frame and focus then load the grafmatic and take a shot then bracket two shots higher and two shots lower, then a second shot at the preferred exposure just in case.

New CatLabs Color 120 Film

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