New B&W 'Zine...? & Updates..

[scootermm]

Kerik... brilliant.

and so much easier.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Gentlemen-

This is wonderful feedback, and I appreciate Kerik's math-free approach to making the NA2 dilutions. My point in going with drops in the article was to allow someone who is NEW TO THE PROCESS to make up a small amount of each solution so they didn't feel they were wasting their expensive chemistry. I suspect that most people new to the process are not going to be diving in printing 12x20s.

 

[scootermm]

Gentlemen-

This is wonderful feedback, and I appreciate Kerik's math-free approach to making the NA2 dilutions. My point in going with drops in the article was to allow someone who is NEW TO THE PROCESS to make up a small amount of each solution so they didn't feel they were wasting their expensive chemistry. I suspect that most people new to the process are not going to be diving in printing 12x20s.

Scott... VERY true, they will hopefully be printing the more manageable sizes (4x5/5x7/8x10/etc)
But along those same lines. Honestly, mixing them up into consistant bottles is, in my opinion, FAR MORE cost effective and simplified. If they buy a 10ml bottle of 20% Na2 and dilute it up specifically as Kerik mentioned, then they are going to have a stock working bottle that will allow them to pull their single drops from whenever they are in a printing session. I am printing 12x20, but regardless of that, I'm still using the "drop" method for the Na2 contrasting agent. For instance, if I were to need 1 drop of 5% Na2 for a 8x10 (or even 4x5/5x7) print, I may use 4 drops of 5% Na2 for a 12x20. The overall efficiency carries over no matter the size of the print.
This is merely the opinion of one person, but it seems alot more wasteful to have 4 shot glasses set out for each print... unless your intent is to take the unused drops in those 4 shots glasses and disperse them into seperate containers for the worker to use the next time around. Just seems like it'd be loads easier to just get that 20% bottle, dilute it out right off the bat and have those 5 ml 20%, 6 ml 10%, 5 ml 5% and 6 ml 2.5% on hand and ready to roll with whenever the need arises.

again though, just my opinion, and comes from my working experience thus far.
Like I said initially, wonderful that you took the time and effort to put this walkthrough together. Hopefully it will be beneficial to many.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

I don't usually put out all four shot glasses anyway- I'm usually working with just a single glass with a single contrast grade mixed up in the minimum quantity I need for that printing session. I rarely have time to make more than about four or five prints in a single printing session (day job, you know). The next time I order a bottle of NA2, I'll have to get a pipette system and measure out my NA2 in separate bottles.

 

[RobertP]

With a 1ml pipette you can dispense 0.005 ml of solution which provides greater accuracy than the photographic process allows. So there is no need to mix 5 and 10% solutions. You can dispense the amounts needed right from the 20% solution. I use glass pipettes because the very small orifice size at the tip of the pipette. I can't comment on the plastic ones. The glass ones put out a stream that is so fine that it is even hard to see as you are dispensing it. I just seem more comfortable with the glass pipettes because it seems there is less chance on the orifice size changing with continued use. But then again I haven't used the plastic ones so I can't actually comment on how well they work. Plus they all (glass or plastic) are dirt cheap and normally come in packs of three. I worry more about handling the bottle of Na2 than I do about breaking a pipette. But with a 1ml pipette you can dial in the amounts with the 20% solution even if your total coating mixture is only 1ml. This makes the Na2 process that much simpler as you are only dealing with one bottle of Na2 instead of three or four. Arentz explains it in great detail in his second edition p. 56-60. Robert

 

[Peter Schrager]

pipettes

Kerik-could you please give us a rundown of how you actually use the pipettes and the amounts therein.....
thanks, Peter

 

[scootermm]

in regards to the pipettes, I know you asked Kerik specifically, but I think my process came circuitiously from Kerik's method. I use 2 pipettes one for the Ferric Oxalate and one for the specific metal salt. (IE one pipette for Pd, one for Pt) And I use an eye dropper for the Na2.
I use the 5ml pipettes/pumps since Im measuring out usually 12x20 amounts (2.4ml, a 1ml pipette would likely suffice just fine for everything up to 8x10 prints. It has seemed to me that 5ml pipettes work well for 8x10-16x20+/-.

Basically 10 sq/inches of negative area = 0.1ml of solution. That seems to be a safe and general starting point with slight variations for papers I've found.
This "rule" allows for adequate overcoating (8x10 print on 11x14 paper etc) to get as even a coat as possible.

For example:
8x10 negative (80sq/inchs) = 0.8ml of Ferric Oxalate, 0.8ml of Palladium + your Na2 amount. OR 0.8ml Ferric Oxalate and some combination of pt/pd equalling 0.8ml
4x5 negative (20sq/in) = 0.2ml of FO, 0.2 ml of Pd (etc) + Na2. Ive found this to be a little on the low side so I usually use 0.3ml/0.3ml
12x20 negative (240sq/in) = 2.4ml FO, 2.4ml Pd + Na2
7x17/11x14 negative (119 -154 sq/in) = 1.2-1.5ml FO, 1.2-1.5ml Pd +Na2

Clay Harmon mentioned this to me when I was starting out printing the big 12x20s and it seems to hold true for almost all sizes Ive printed in. Its a perfect starting point that can be adjusted to the unique paper needs etc.

so basically the chicken scratch on the bottom of each of my 12x20 prints goes like this:

FO/Pd/Na2 drops & % - printing time
2.4/2.4/4d 5% - 6 mins

 

[Don12x20]

Pipettes -- when you purchase one, be certain that you understand which of the two types you get and measure accordingly....they are calibrated differently, and for small amounts of undiluted NA2 you can introduce some differences. The first type requires you to "blow out" the last drop, while the other type is calibrated such that when the top of the pipette is open to the atmosphere, liquid remains in the tip.

Frankly it does not matter which type you get as long as you know how to deal with that last bit.

Get a good pipette pump. While you can self-aspirate using a length of tubing (don't ever use your mouth on the end of the pipette!), the pump is so much easier. Dick shows a self-built pump in his book using a glass syringe and tubing as an alternative. I've used that at one of his workshops, but the pump is easier to use.

As for dilution of NA2 using small amounts -- see Arentz's latest volume. The table is right there.

 

[RobertP]

Pipettes and pumps. The top 2 are 2ml and the bottom one is 1 ml. These do not blow the last drop out. You stop when you reach the mark at the bottom if you are using a full 2ml or 1ml. Then you draw more solution if needed. The same size pump can be used for the 2ml as is used for the 1ml. (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[RobertP]

Also different papers will require different amounts. Some papers require more solution to coat well than others. That is a variable you must determine when you try a new paper. Humidity also plays a roll. As Don said Arentz's charts takes the guess work out of it and provides a very good starting point for your mixtures. Robert

 

[RobertP]

A little better pic of the graduations of the 2ml and 1ml pipettes. Because the measurement ends before the tip these are considered Mohr pipettes. I think that is how they are classified. The pipettes that empty out the tip are classified as serological pipettes. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[RobertP]

It all boils down to developing a consistent work flow. For instance; If I'm going to use Platine to print I'll adjust my humidity to 60% the night before and take the paper out and just let it sit in that environment overnight. The next day it will be humidified to print well with. But all papers are not alike. If I use Swiss Opaline it will not require as much humidity and it will still use 30% less solution to coat the same size sheet. Once you get to know the papers you like to print with all this will just be second nature. The only time I usually need to try different variables is when I'm trying a new paper. Robert

 

[Peter Schrager]

thnak you!!

scootermm and robert-thanks to both of you for the information....now to go goof it up!!
Best, Peter

 

[photomc]

First, as the thread seems to have gone off topic, congratulations to David and Scott for adding a good resource for someone interested in plt/pld printing - good job guys.

The discussion about the Na2 would make a good - but seperate thread (IMO). How each of us works with Na2 (or any other method - such as expousre using Zone, BTZS, etc) is one of personal choice. While many find the need to work precise manner, others are happy to work with a more general approach. It comes down to what makes us happy - let's face it Kerik's prints look just fine so his method works for him, Dick Arentz is well known for his work so his method work for him.

 

[RobertP]

It wasn't my intention to dispute anyone's method. I totally agree what works for one may not suit another. The question was asked how to use pipettes and I was just pointing out that with the proper tools you can eliminate the need to have 4 different bottles of Na2. Dick's approach makes this very simple and as some think, more precise. That is not to say that another approach is inferior. I've used the dropper method and pipettes. They both will work fine. But as I moved up to ULF prints I find that Dick's method using pipettes and using his charts much easier and faster than counting out drops for 8x20 and 12x20 prints and it eliminates the need for so many different solutions of Na2. Especially if you have a densitometer and can determine the density range of your negative. But what works for me may not suit someone else. I was not trying to downplay anyone's method but just offering a different way of achieving the same end. As far as this being off topic, I think it was the author of the article that mentioned going to a pipette system the next time he orders Na2. That is what brought pipettes into the discussion. But I will happily have all my posts removed if you feel it has derailed this thread. Robert

 

[photomc]

Robert, sorry if my comments came out wrong. Your post have been most resonable and I have no problem with them, again was just trying to get the thread back on track. I find that when a question is ask, that is off topic it works out to start a new thread in order to preserve the original.

Again, I apologize if my post was taken the wrong way....we now return you to the articles section...

 

[vickersdc]

Guys, this is really interesting - do you think that there is the possibility of another pt/pd article, but this time for more experienced users? Sort of building upon Scotts article - could we take it to the next level? Would anyone / a few of you be up for helping out on this?

Cheers,
David.

 

[vickersdc]

I've made a couple of minor changes to the site which I hope will make it more useful to you.

The changes relate to the 'About' section - where there used to be a 'Meet The Team' page showing information on the contributors that helped get the project started. That page has been removed and replaced by a more useful 'Links' page that lists...

- Forums: all your favourite forums are listed here (if I've missed any out then let me know!). These forums are the ones who allowed me to post innumerable threads about the project without getting angry. Well, maybe just a little bit, but it was my own fault! So a big 'Thanks' not just to the members of those forums, but also the moderators who allowed me to post.
- Flickr: that huge resource for images. You'll find the link to the Creative Image Maker group and others as I come by them.
- Websites: belonging to contributors. A great way to find out what other photographers are doing; there's some inspirational work here.

I hope you enjoy looking through the site, please keep on popping by and giving me your feedback as I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on the site.

Cheers,
David Vickers.

 

[vickersdc]

There are quite a few things to update you all on...

1. The switch to version 2.0 of the website.
2. Paper-based magazine.
3. Up-coming feature images and articles.
4. Other news.

*** Version 2.0 ***
The bulk of the new website is ready, but it's always a bit of a catch-up as each week passes by as I have to upload new items to the current site and then convert them for the version 2.0 site. The quicker we can get the switchover done, the better!

The change to the new site will mean that it will be unavailable for 24-48 hours whilst the changes percolate through the internet. That switchover may well be happening this week once I'm happy that it is sorted with the hosting provider (there are currently 'issues' around finances for this - i.e. I want a refund!).

*** The Paper Magazine ***
It would appear that the idea for a print-on-demand magazine will not be happening. I received the samples from Lightning Source (whom, I must add, were extremely helpful), but the quality of image reproduction just wasn't what I had hoped for.

This is a bit of a blow in the whole plan, but undeterred I have found a good ol' traditional printer who could well save the day! It's likely that there will not be a magazine in April as I had originally hoped, but with luck June may be more realistic - and here is where you can help me... I will need to have a rough idea of how many people are interested in a proper, quality magazine so that I can obtain pricing. You can email me at info@creativeimagemaker.co.uk (subject line "Paper mag") and let me know. It'll give me an idea of whether I'm looking at printing 500 copies, or 5.

*** Future Features ***
There are so many articles in the pipeline that I want to put them all up on the site now! It's becoming hard to choose what should go up and when! This is fabulous and I'd like to thank those that have already been published and all those waiting in the wings for their work to be published. Over the next couple of months we've got...

- An article by Dorothy Kloss about building a darkroom;
- Several article by Christopher Walrath covering a range of subjects (Chris was one of the first people to contribute and he's still waiting to see his work in the magazine - sorry Chris, it's coming, honest!);
- Stan L-B writes about why light matters;
- Jason Brunner, whom some of you may recognise from the APUG forum, has written a piece about the Fotoman 6x17 camera;
- Jim Read tells us about creating cyanotypes;
- Tom Overton provides follow-on information about the use of coffee as a developer;
- Do you buy equipment from eBay? I know I do, and John Sawula has written an article about it;
- Even I am getting in on the act! I've written articles on the Nikon EM camera (a much under-rated camera), and I'll be kicking off the beginners series with a look at the equipment one needs to create your own images...
- ...and I've also got a Polaroid special planned as well (in spite of recent announcements about Polaroid!).

Feature images are going from strength to strength as well - today (10th Feb) will see not one, but two feature images! Thanks to Dennis Cordell and Alan Huntley for their kind permission to use their photographs.

*** Other News ***
As I'm sure you are all aware by now it's been an interesting time in the world of photography. Fuji unveiled their prototype medium format rangefinder - a 6x7 folding camera and we await to see if it actually makes it in to production in the future. Polaroid, on the other hand, have announced the closure of two factories with the loss of several jobs. This is a great shame to those of us who use Polaroid films - especially for image transfers and emulsion lifts as the Fuji film just doesn't work the same way. It's interesting to note that Polaroid is ready to licence the technology and I wonder who will take over the production of Polaroid films - let's hope someone does!

With that, I'll end there. Please stop by the magazine site over the week to see all the new features. It's at... Dead Link Removed

Thanks,
David.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

David- I'd be up for multiple copies of the magazine so I can have tearsheets to pass around.

 

[Chazzy]

I'd definitely like to have one, if postage from the UK isn't too unreasonable.

 

[jp80874]

A couple for me please.

Thank you for my article.

John Powers

 

[Christopher Walrath]

Well I don't want any.


. . . . .






No, OK, breathe out. Yeah, you know I'm good for at least a couple.

 

[unhinged]

I'll definitely have a copy.

 

[Fotohuis]

We will try to have any feed back from our worldwide customers for a printed analog magazine.
If every customer would like to have it; 2.750 pieces but normally you can count on 2% with a direct (e-) mail. So maybe around 50. Therefore it could be important to keep the printed version under 250 grams in weight.