New at Photokina 2012: ADOX SILVERMAX 35mm film 135/36

[Richard S. (rich815)]

I thought Mirko had already said that.

I must have missed that. They seem to imply its different but seem to skirt actually directly saying such.

 

[michaelbsc]

I must have missed that. They seem to imply its different but seem to skirt actually directly saying such.

See post 129 this thread, which refers back to Mirko's comment earlier that I can't actually find right now.

It's based in APX 100. Slightly thicker emulsion with higher Dmax and contrast. Different base (clear). Same spectral response (because it's the same chemical emulsion just coated thicker).

My earlier comment about antihalation layer was a tongue-in-cheek joke about the peanut gallery responses we would hear if they tried to claim that it truly was APX 100. I have no evidence that the antihalation layer is the same or different. It was a joke.

But again, I'll say that I think we can treat it like APX 100 and get "substantially" the same results as if it were the real thing.

I think Thomas's idea of a step wedge is great.

 

[laser]

All this discussion but no D Log E curve from the manufacturer or any one else.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

you can use the 35mm base in medium format cameras

This is not correct.
There has been one attempt in history of a company converting 135micron thick triacetate into 120 films and the the product showed severe problems. There were thousands of claims.
No other manufacturer ever did this.
Apart from the problems you will run into this is only possible if you spool the films manually as far as I am informed. 120 spooling machines (for sure ours) will reject this base as the diameter of the film will be out of tolerance. There will be jams in the film guides as well.
Due to the known issues, manual spooling is for us no alternative for a premium line product.

What has been tried more sucesfully is to use the thinner but very stable 100 micron PET for 120 and 35mm film (the other way around).
This leads to problems in perforating unless you adapt your machines specially to it which is costly and you end up with lightpiping in the 35mm films.
We have sold the CHS films this way but we feel that a quality product cannot be sold with such an amount of lightpiping so we would not consider this for a premium line product.
We undertook several research coatings in this field and tried with differend anti halation and backside blocking coatings but the lightpiping was not possible to control.
So we decided to keep 35mm on triacetate.

All larger manufacturers use:

100 micron PET or triacetate for 120 film
135 micron triacetate (greybase or clear) for 35mm film
170 micron PET or triacetate for sheetfilm

As far as Silvermax is concerned I alreday stated in the beginning that we used up old stock materials from Agfa in order to manufacturer this film and this is the reason why it is neither a rollfilm, nor a sheetfilm nor APX 100 which is coated onto greybase.

Fomas R100 btw is made only as a 35mm film out of the same reasons.

Mirko

 

[MDR]

Thank you Mirko for answering the question.

Dominik

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...There has been one attempt in history of a company converting 135micron thick triacetate into 120 films and the the product showed severe problems. There were thousands of claims....No other manufacturer ever did this....All larger manufacturers use:

100 micron PET or triacetate for 120 film
135 micron triacetate (greybase or clear) for 35mm film
170 micron PET or triacetate for sheetfilm...

It's 125 micron, not 135, but Ilford uses the same acetate master roll for both 35 mm and 120 Delta 3200. See the second and third paragraphs on page one here:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/201071394723115.pdf​

It's been a long time since I shot it in 120 but, when I did, it was tinted gray just like 35 mm.

 

[laser]

All this discussion but no D Log E curve from the manufacturer or any one else.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

All this discussion but no D Log E curve from the manufacturer or any one else.

You could always purchase a roll of APX 100 and a roll of Silvermax each, expose a step wedge, and plot the graphs yourself if you have a densitometer.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

It's 125 micron

This is corect.
I got mixed up with 135/36 ;-)

If Ilford was using the same base for their 3200 Rollfilm it could be because this product has only limited shelve life.
If you roll 125 micron triacetate wthout anti curling layer on the backside onto a 120 core and keep it wound for over a year you expirience terrible curl of the film after development. At least that´s the expirience we have.
With the 3200 ASA product this either might not have occured because of a fast supply chain or because Ilford uses a kind of double sided substrated TAC with NC on both formats. If this was obtainable (double side substrated TAC) it could actually be something interesting to look at for future small volume runs. For Silvermax this option did not exist as the old stock base we used up was only substrated on one side.

Some of you people really have very deep inside knowledge.
It´s a pleasure to hang out here but now I have Photokina meetings again ;-)

Mirko

PS 1.000 rolls of Silvermax have been sold the past 3 days. Now we are almost out. We limit sales now to 1 roll per person at the trade show booth.

 

[pdeeh]

Is there any information about when this film might be available in the UK?
(ordering from Fotoimpex.de is rather expensive once surcharges and delivery are factored in)

 

[laser]

This calls for a little math.

They sold 1000 rolls and are almost out.

1000 rolls (.555ft2/roll) is 450 linear feet of film 4 feet wide.

Let's assume they coat very, very slowly say 100ft/minute. That is 4.5 minutes of coating time.


Is this a business?

 

[zsas]

I believe Mirko means that he brought 1,000 rolls of film to Photokina to sell and have almost sold out of the 1,000 rolls they made avail for purchase at the camera show....

 

[michaelbsc]

I believe Mirko means that he brought 1,000 rolls of film to Photokina to sell and have almost sold out of the 1,000 rolls they made avail for purchase at the camera show....

That was my impression, too. I doubt they only coated enough to make 1K rolls. I can't imagine you could fire up the line for that small a volume. If you could then by golly I'm gonna start me a boutique film business.

 

[ath]

Mirko said that they expect the coated batch to last 5 years.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

This calls for a little math.

They sold 1000 rolls and are almost out.

1000 rolls (.555ft2/roll) is 450 linear feet of film 4 feet wide.

Let's assume they coat very, very slowly say 100ft/minute. That is 4.5 minutes of coating time.


Is this a business?

Perhaps not for the Kodak of old. The one depicted in your excellent book. (Which I purchased.)

But Mirko has said directly that his intentionally small factory "can make quantities of a few thousand rolls of film at about 3-5 USD per roll", with some restrictions. (See his post (there was a url link here which no longer exists).) This is likely a glimpse into the longer term future of film manufacturing. And certainly a glimpse into the future of any so-called artisan films.

Ken

 

[laser]

I, like most AgX photographers, am trying to determine if film will be manufactured 10 years from now and beyond.

I was hoping that Mirko was a possibility. I didn't fully realize that this was a one time effort that is not sustainable.


I was also hoping they would substantiate the claims with a simple D LogE curve. I don't know how they can make the claims without showing a characteristic curve.

 

[Trond]

Silvermax is possibly a one time effort, because they apparently are using up left over clear acetate base from Agfa. They have other films in the pipeline, which they have stated several times already.

Trond

 

[thomas l]

Dominik, sorry, but I can't find any statement on the Maco website and the RPX data sheets that RPX is identical to the Kentmere films.

Best regards,
Henning

Rollei RPX and Kentmere Films are the same, everybody knows it. That the RPX was a new film was one of the (last) fairy tales of Hartmuth Schroeder in red and blue letters..... Maco now officialy mentions itself that it is the same film.

But Silvermax is really a new film, I already ordered one. I liked Scala very much, so let's see how it will be in Wehner process. The reports are sounding very good

Thomas

 

[georg16nik]

SILVERMAX in SILVERMAX Developer characteristic curve:

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX Films/Premium/SILVERMAX/SMAX_index.html

 

[zsas]

^So what does it mean? I've never understood how to read these charts?

 

[Rudeofus]

The chart says lists zone exposure in its x-axis and film density in its y-axis. This means if you expose a section of this film at zone 8, you can expect a density of 1.29 over b+f, assuming of course, that you develop exactly like it was done when this chart was made. So what is zone 8? It appears to be 7 stops above the light density which creates about 0.1 density over b+f.

What do I read from this chart? From zone 1 to zone 9 this film has more or less a straight curve which then flattens considerably. Either a compensating film developer was used for this chart, or the film uses DIR couplers to achieve its 14 stop range, or both.

 

[Henning Serger]

Rollei RPX and Kentmere Films are the same, everybody knows it.

Hello Thomas,

no, they are definitely not the same films, but different emulsions. If you compare them directly side by side you will see it. Have you done that? No, you have not.
Independant developer manufacturers like Wolfgang Moersch ( www.moersch-photochemie.de ) and Heribert Schain from Spur (www.spur-photo.com ) have intensively tested both the two Kentmere and the two RPX films and very clearly say that the emulsions are different (and therefore also different developing times in the Moersch and Spur developers).
Another friend of mine, Ralf Sänger (you know, the author of several articles in the German print magazine "Schwarzweiss" ) has also tested these films in direct comparison and has confirmed the results from Moersch and Spur that the films are different.

The RPX films are coated by Harman/Ilfordphoto.
But as Simon Galley always very clearly has said, they will not offer their original Ilford and Kentmere products to other companies.
But they do manufacturing for other companies with different products.

But Silvermax is really a new film, I already ordered one. I liked Scala very much, so let's see how it will be in Wehner process. The reports are sounding very good

I've already used this film in the Wehner process and yes, the results are excellent (so are the results of Scala 200X, Foma R100, Agfa Copex Rapid and the Retro 80S in Klaus Wehner's reversal process).
I've been at Photokina and have talked directly to Mirko Böddecker and Klaus Wehner.
I will give you further details in a separate Photokina report in the next days. Stay tuned .

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

And here is the Silvermax curve superimposed on the APX 100 curve. It seems almost identical, except for the shadows. But the Silvermax curve isn't complete. It's cut off before the toe, so it's difficult to tell.

SILVERMAX in SILVERMAX Developer characteristic curve:

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX Films/Premium/SILVERMAX/SMAX_index.html

 

[Flux]

I've already used this film in the Wehner process and yes, the results are excellent (so are the results of Scala 200X, Foma R100, Agfa Copex Rapid and the Retro 80S in Klaus Wehner's reversal process).
I've been at Photokina and have talked directly to Mirko Böddecker and Klaus Wehner.
I will give you further details in a separate Photokina report in the next days. Stay tuned .

Best regards,
Henning

Hello Henning,
do you have some samples of your photos online? Would be nice to see how photod from this film look like. How were you able to shoot this film without knowing the curve anyway?

Looking forward to your Photokina report.

 

[Henning Serger]

Hello Henning,
do you have some samples of your photos online? Would be nice to see how photod from this film look like.

No sorry, I have no photos online. Well, honestly, I don't think we can really evaluate the characteristics of a film by looking at the pictures online, on computer monitors. It doesn't make much sense.
To see what the (a) film can deliver you have to look at real prints, or in this case also at the BW positives / slides on a lightbox and in projection.

Best regards,
Henning

P.S. I have some pictures of the Wehner reversal process online (and Scala), but both are with different films, not the Silvermax.