New (as of 2019) airport CT scanners

[Agulliver]

I must say, it would take a huge part of my enjoyment of travel away if I can't shoot film. So I'm watching this with great interest, as it seems that this time there really is cause for concern.

In the past, even up to 2020, there was no worry as long as film was taken in hand baggage. In earlier times, film was so common that security people recognised film and cameras so they didn't arouse any suspicion. Airports also typically had posters advising that the X-ray machines used for cabin bags was safe for film. Those times are gone. I've been pulled up by security in the last few years because my cabin bag has basically been my camera bag and they no longer know what the rolls of film, mechanical cameras and lenses are. That says something about the small amount of amateur and pro photographers with film gear.

 

[Ai Print]

This will sound like an "I told you so" but what is happening surely became clear at least months ago when it did not take much "reading between the lines" to work out that what Kodak and Ilford was saying( Fuji said nothing) was that there was nothing they could or perhaps were prepared to do about it.

Perhaps both of them and the market they control is just too small to expect their " vested interest" in film promotion to outweigh the benefits of the new scanners and they realise this.

I agree that taking film on holidays by air will soon be a thing of the past unless the user is prepared to expend the time, energy and cost to do so. This looks to be too big an "ask" for nearly all of us

pentaxuser

This is spot on, I can't imagine there is much they can do to adapt to this new demand placed on travelers using film, so I am not looking at them for those answers. The answers I am looking at the makers and sellers of film for is how do we create a well thought out and coordinated logistical entity for buying film and processing it while abroad or shipping it ahead of time to our destination and then ship it back safely, regardless of cost?

If based on this new challenge in flying with film and it comes down to most people opting to use digital means while traveling outside their country to make images, then I *do* think that will have a negative impact on long term sales of film and film related products.

To put it in British terms, you may very well have a bunch of current or potential film users say "Well sod it then, why bother using film at all?"

 

[wiltw]

To put it in British terms, you may very well have a bunch of current or potential film users say "Well sod it then, why bother using film at all?"

1. First my favorite printing material for color transparency shots is killed...Cibachrome
2. Then they kill off the preview material used before taking final shots on 4x5 transparency...Polaroid
3. They they kill off one of my favorite sizes of film, 220
4. Then they kill off multiples of my favorite emulsions, spanning 3 formats
5. Now they make it impossible to transport, and force you to rely upon unknown process control quality labs which are located in whatever country or state that you happen to be in before returning home.

...well on the way to 10-count to technical knockout (TKO)

 

[Ai Print]

...well on the way to 10-count to technical knockout (TKO)

But it doesn't have to go this way...

I think it is safe to say most regular users of film know it is truly niche and procure and use film according to that framework.
And we have largely lost brick and mortar, so doing things online and by mail is not a foreign concept.

Imagine an app that you import a calendar trip into and then build a film project user case and logistical solution with. It would be part of a way to employ a third party service that would work in niche fashion in the analog film product world and make the process of either shipping film back and forth or buying it abroad and then sending it out for processing to go home much easier.

Film is shipped all over the world safely every day, it's just matter of tapping into that with the greatest efficiency possible.

Flying with film is going to be a dynamic situation for awhile, I see my energy best spent in refining the notion of shipping it abroad.

 

[wiltw]

But it doesn't have to go this way...

I think it is safe to say most regular users of film know it is truly niche and procure and use film according to that framework.
And we have largely lost brick and mortar, so doing things online and by mail is not a foreign concept.

Imagine an app that you import a calendar trip into and then build a film project user case and logistical solution with. It would be part of a way to employ a third party service that would work in niche fashion in the analog film product world and make the process of either shipping film back and forth or buying it abroad and then sending it out for processing to go home much easier.

Film is shipped all over the world safely every day, it's just matter of tapping into that with the greatest efficiency possible.

Flying with film is going to be a dynamic situation for awhile, I see my energy best spent in refining the notion of shipping it abroad.

Sounds like a business opportunity for you...

 

[Ai Print]

Sounds like a business opportunity for you...

Well until there is some way to pay for this service, I am out of business on these types of projects until I solve it.

I would much rather be out making imagery...

 

[mooseontheloose]

I must say, it would take a huge part of my enjoyment of travel away if I can't shoot film. So I'm watching this with great interest, as it seems that this time there really is cause for concern.

In the past, even up to 2020, there was no worry as long as film was taken in hand baggage. In earlier times, film was so common that security people recognised film and cameras so they didn't arouse any suspicion. Airports also typically had posters advising that the X-ray machines used for cabin bags was safe for film. Those times are gone. I've been pulled up by security in the last few years because my cabin bag has basically been my camera bag and they no longer know what the rolls of film, mechanical cameras and lenses are. That says something about the small amount of amateur and pro photographers with film gear.

I feel exactly the same way. Travel and photography are, for me, completely intertwined. If I had to shoot digital I would probably just go with my phone and not worry about the rest of it. For certain places, it will still be doable (even without shipping film) as it will be possible to buy and/or develop film in major centres like London, Paris, NYC, Tokyo, etc. But for all the other, smaller places...I guess maybe I will have lost my chance to shoot them with film.

 

[wiltw]

I lived the first 40 years of my life with film and darkroom. then digital came along, and I got my first digital camera in 2002 as an mas gift from my wife, I got my first 'acceptable quality' dSLR in 2004. Now, 20 years later, I use digital because my favortie emuilsion are almost all discontinued, one of my favorite film sizes 220 is gone, and my absolute favorite photographic activity (darkroom printing) is not the same without my favorite color darkroom chemistry and paper gone (Cibachrome). It is the hobby, not simply the tools, that bring enjoyment. We need to adapt, to continue enjoying what was once a chemical process, or we lose our hobby. Most recently Fuji discontinued my favority ISO 400 color neg emulsion. and the new airport scanners make shooting film more of a trial and tribulation. We need to adapt or die.

 

[pentaxuser]

I lived the first 40 years of my life with film and darkroom. then digital came along, and I got my first digital camera in 2002 as an mas gift from my wife, I got my first 'acceptable quality' dSLR in 2004. Now, 20 years later, I use digital because my favortie emuilsion are almost all discontinued, one of my favorite film sizes 2020 is gone, and my absolute favorite photographic activity (darkroom printing) is not the same without my favorite color darkroom chemistry and paper gone (Cibachrome). It is the hobby, not simply the tools, that bring enjoyment. We need to adapt, to continue enjoying what was once a chemical process, or we lose our hobby. Most recently Fuji discontinued my favority ISO 400 color neg emulsion. and the new airport scanners make shooting film more of a trial and tribulation. We need to adapt or die.

So I agree: We need to use digital when travelling to airports where there are new scanners and the airport security will not agree to a hand inspection is what I think you are saying and I agree that the chances of getting any change to the scanners are zero and the chances of getting any non U.S. airport security staff to agree to hand inspection are as near zero as to make no difference. Finally I'd rate the chances of film-makers exerting any kind of pressure to change anything as nearly as poorly as in my rating for change in the first two options.

We go by rail or boat in future or use digital

pentaxuser

 

[wiltw]

So I agree: We need to use digital when travelling to airports where there are new scanners and the airport security will not agree to a hand inspection is what I think you are saying and I agree that the chances of getting any change to the scanners are zero and the chances of getting any non U.S. airport security staff to agree to hand inspection are as near zero as to make no difference. Finally I'd rate the chances of film-makers exerting any kind of pressure to change anything as nearly as poorly as in my rating for change in the first two options.
We go by rail or boat in future or use digital
pentaxuser

The world is forcing us to change. The purism of film world vs. digital, that I see so strong on Photrio, has to change in the way we work, unless we sacrifice where we go and how we get there. The purist cannot continue forever.

 

[Peter Schrager]

HATE TO DISAPPOINT EVERYONE HERE BUT I JUST WENT THROUGH 4 SCANNERS IN 2 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES WITH NO PROBLEMS
TRUTH BE TOLD I WENT TO MEXICO AND GOT HURT THE FIRST DAY SO I NEVER SHOT ANY FILM
SO WITH MY ONE GOOD ARM I SHOT A ROLL OF HP5 AND IT LOOKS FINE TO ME
WILL PROOF IT WAS TOMMORROW
AND YES YOU CAN ALWAYS ASK FOR HAND INSPECTION AS LONG AS YOU ARE COURTEOUS TO THE TSA

 

[BrianShaw]

Hi Peter. Sorry to hear about your injury. Sounds like very bad timing... although there is never good timing for an injury.

Fascinating report; thanks! For clarity, was your film scanned all times or did it get hand inspected at some airports. Also, did you notice if they were the CT scanners.

Hope you had st least a bit of fun in Mexico. Itsxx CD a great place to visit.

 

[pentaxuser]

The world is forcing us to change.
.

Except that film is in a revival and presumably most film users would choose to travel with film if this were possible. The irony is that in terms of air travel the number of us needing hand inspection v the number of digital shooters is so small that hand inspection would in reality take up so little of the security staff's time but it will not be done simply because our strength, namely,lack of numbers thus creating little problem to airport security staff is also our weakness in terms of exerting our will on the people, i.e, those called politicians, who could make the difference.

The change that is damaging for we film users is not in fact inevitable at all. It is not the world that is forcing us to change in the way that whatever we may like to do in terms of living as we currently do we have to change to reverse, say, climate change. That qualifies under your definition of the world is forcing us to change. However it is not a case of stop using film or die but a much simpler case of not being big enough to exert enough leverage to force the simple way round the problem, namely hand inspection. Where there is not enough "will" to change then change doesn't happen.

pentaxuser

pentaxuser

 

[Peter Schrager]

Hi Peter. Sorry to hear about your injury. Sounds like very bad timing... although there is never good timing for an injury.

Fascinating report; thanks! For clarity, was your film scanned all times or did it get hand inspected at some airports. Also, did you notice if they were the CT scanners.

Hope you had st least a bit of fun in Mexico. Itsxx CD a great place to visit.

Hi Brian
Started out at JFK in NYC didn't feel I needed hand inspection as I knew I was going there and back
After I got injured my plans changed dramatically and I needed to get back home
As I went to another city by car I had to ditch the car and fly from San Luis Potosi to Mexico city
Mexico city to Charlotte and Charlotte to NYC
I have no clue what scanners they use at jfk 9r in Charlotte but I'm sure an online search would tell you
Mexico I wouldn't be too sure they have latest technology but then again they might
Believe me this was not something I wanted to do by choice but was moving along with one arm and not particularly concerned with my film
I'm going to do another roll tomorrow with tmy 400
And hopefully it will be a little more sunny...
But I honestly do not see anything that is on the film

 

[wiltw]

Some photos of some different CT security scanners now in use
https://www.google.com/search?q=CT+security+scanner+photo&lr=&hl=en&as_qdr=all&sxsrf=ALeKk021gU4Ls-CD7R82Cm__w5W16jLwKQ:1620618475868&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=sa1XNgjKXLWz5M%2CyOO-9or8DJnxcM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTkZ1y5hGpycg3xiPsW58_mghSxCw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjV18ekmr7wAhXV7Z4KHbhgCW8Q9QF6BAgKEAE#imgrc=cWY5GlId5_L8kM

Maybe you recognize one. The biggest noticeable change: you no longer have to remove laptops from hand luggage.

 

[Peter Schrager]

all airports I went through asked you to remove electronics including computers and phones

 

[koraks]

all airports I went through asked you to remove electronics including computers and phones

Then they weren't the dreaded CT scanners.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Email I received from CATSA for YVR:

"We recommend that you put undeveloped film and cameras containing undeveloped film in your carry-on baggage or take undeveloped film with you to the checkpoint and ask the screener to conduct a hand inspection."

The last time I asked them in March 2017, they said film is safe up to 400 ISO. I guess not so today. And the last time I asked for a hand inspection, they wanted to open the sealed box of 4x5 film.

 

[Peter Schrager]

I continued to develop several rolls of hp5 and tmy400 with NO signs of fogging. Gues I'm lucky but won't be dragging the rest of the unexposed films to the airport.
All I can say if there is a will there is a way!

 

[Renato Tonelli]

I continued to develop several rolls of hp5 and tmy400 with NO signs of fogging. Gues I'm lucky but won't be dragging the rest of the unexposed films to the airport.
All I can say if there is a will there is a way!

It's encouraging to hear.

 

[pentaxuser]

It's encouraging to hear.

Well yes and no. I am glad that Peter's film were OK but until we can be sure he went through a new scanner then in terms of what we can expect from the new scanners we can draw no encouragement.

Peter is there a way to ascertain what the scanner was that your film passed through undamaged?


Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[wiltw]

Well yes and no. I am glad that Peter's film were OK but until we can be sure he went through a new scanner then in terms of what we can expect from the new scanners we can draw no encouragement.

Peter is there a way to ascertain what the scanner was that your film passed through undamaged?


Thanks

pentaxuser

Peter already posted, "all airports I went through asked you to remove electronics including computers and phones"...in indicator that the new CT scanners were never encountered, as the point of the CT scanners is to expedite security check by eliminating the need for travellers to remove laptops ofr even the plastic bag full of 3oz liquids.

. Please, anyone who has positively encountered the CT scanners in an airport could confirm that they have/have not experienced the lack of removal of laptops or [plastic bag of liquids with use of CT scanner at Security.

 

[Peter Schrager]

If you think you are mating with a CT scanner you had best ask for hand inspection
Most of the TSA folks are quite nice if you are nice
EUROPE could be quite a different story so I would hit up the nearest FedEx location and ship it back

 

[wiltw]

If you think you are mating with a CT scanner you had best ask for hand inspection
Most of the TSA folks are quite nice if you are nice
EUROPE could be quite a different story so I would hit up the nearest FedEx location and ship it back

However we have no assurance that Fedex shipments are not subjected to the industrial-strength scanners which have long been in use. those things are large enough to inspect entire cargo containers and truck trailers in one sweep!

http://www.nuctech.com/en/SitePages/ThDetailPage.aspx?nk=PAS&k=DGBHFA

https://www.portstrategy.com/news101/port-operations/safety-and-security/revealing_all​

 

[AgX]

However we have no assurance that Fedex shipments are not subjected to the industrial-strength scanners which have long been in use. those things are large enough to inspect entire cargo containers and truck trailers in one sweep!

​

Not only vehicle scanners, but common baggage scanners too. For X-raying parcels.
Both for transport safety and for import contrabande.

And in contrast to passenger airport and other public scanners there is practically no knowledge of what kind of machines are used.