New (as of 2019) airport CT scanners

In most cases when I fly I take only digital, if I going to Europe, post COVID, I will take a film camera buy film and mail it home. If I really want to shoot film, MF, LF will take a container ship that also takes passengers, expensive but doable, but will need to do it soon, upper age limit is 79.

Paul Howell said:

In most cases when I fly I take only digital, if I going to Europe, post COVID, I will take a film camera buy film and mail it home. If I really want to shoot film, MF, LF will take a container ship that also takes passengers, expensive but doable, but will need to do it soon, upper age limit is 79.

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Mail goes through scanners as well.just ask for hand check and tell them you shoot all film over 1000 iso
Just spend 2 months shooting in Europe. No problem getting hand checks. The Germans swiped each roll of film but apart from that it was no problem.

OK so it looks as if the position is this : Our U.S. members will be able to fly with film as long as it is internal flights only. By and large the rest of us will not and there appears to be a consensus that we do not try and engage in any form of dialogue with anyone who might be able to solve our problem so I wonder what the point of continuing this thread is. It is all empty discussion, isn't it? We mutually commiserate with each other which is fine but by #703 it seems we may be close to exhausting the therapeutic benefit of mutual commiseration


Or am I being too pessimistic? I'd love to see any suggestions as to what anyone believes might be a viable plan to bring about hand inspections. Bikerider introduced a new element in the discussion but it appears to have all fallen on stony ground. Maybe no-one believes that anything can be done. We are in effect powerless. There is about as much chance of changing things for the better as there is for the return of Kodachrome

Does that sum it up?
PS I thought I had covered the monkey and organ grinder analogy. It is what it says i.e. an analogy indicating a distinction between those who follow rules and enforce those rules and those who control what those rules say. IT DOES NOT INDICATE THAT YOU TREAT SECURITY PERSONNEL AS IF THEY ARE MONKEYS. It suggests that the frontline security personnel do what they are told but you probably need to engage those people initially to get to the organ grinder.

Anyway I will not continue with any further participation in this thread. It only seems to be causing frustration/ consternation/ condemnation. Just too many "ions" for the thread's good

Good luck with the thread

pentaxuser

Thank you I respect your decision.

This is a discussion about the new carryon baggage scanning technology and it’s impact on photographers. I’m learning a lot. We are all learning as we go. A discussion about how to change security rules and techniques will probably never have a satisfactory answer so it might be best to just accept that fact. Folks can proffer suggestions and other folks can react as their experience/opinion dictates. What really would be nice is if someone, anybody, would actually try what they are proposing. Now THAT would be instructive and give hope that all is not lost for airline passengers who use film cameras!

pentaxuser said:

Probably because no-one has properly challenged them in the real sense of "making a scene"

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make a scene, get a proctological search in exchange...no thanks. Pass.

Radost said:

Mail goes through scanners as well.just ask for hand check and tell them you shoot all film over 1000 iso
Just spend 2 months shooting in Europe. No problem getting hand checks. The Germans swiped each roll of film but apart from that it was no problem.

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I think I use FedX and label no X ray.

wiltw said:

make a scene, get a proctological search in exchange...no thanks. Pass.

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Time it for when you are due for one. Then you'll save money and time on that Dr's visit. Just politely ask them if they notice anything amiss.

A very long time ago, in a very different world, I worked as a Canadian Customs officer - essentially a border guard.
There was a myriad of examples where the enabling legislation for what we did also made other legislation inapplicable to what we were empowered to do.
Most likely, the enabling legislation for the scanners deems their effects to not be "damage" under the Criminal Damage Act or, declares that Act to be innaplicable to same.

Sirius Glass said:

How come the security people at Heathrow Airport are totally unaware of this law.

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Heathrow is very overcrowded. They think they don't have time to hand check. Plus they are arrogant and rude. Suggest buying and processing film in-country, and/or carry a digital camera. As much as I detest that idea I may have to succumb.

Indeed, there are machines that can easily detect any trace of explosives. Security could easily pass film through those machines with no difficulty.

Arthurwg said:

Plus they are arrogant and rude.

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Heathrow in a nutshell, right here.

Huss said:

Time it for when you are due for one. Then you'll save money and time on that Dr's visit. Just politely ask them if they notice anything amiss.

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Thank you for the suggestion. With the doctor, one has a camera inserted while anesthetized. With Security, it is more likely digital search while fully awake, so you are awake enough to board the airplane with the sensation of K-Y to remind you of what occurred . Still pass.

Arthurwg said:

Heathrow is very overcrowded. They think they don't have time to hand check. Plus they are arrogant and rude. Suggest buying and processing film in-country, and/or carry a digital camera. As much as I detest that idea I may have to succumb.

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I would not recommend dying over this. You may choose to yield or give in, but succumbing is a bit rash in this situation.

In the context of this discussion, I wonder whether shipments of photo material from online stores are also at risk if they are sent by air?

Airports do have the capacity to swab individual items for explosives, and it's happened to me on a handful of occasions - always a slight concern as I work with some explosives on occasion. In the days when i used my work bag as a cabin bag, that was a potential issue!

But the swabbing of individual items takes time and costs money to run the test even though it's automated. Simply running every bag on a conveyor through the x-ray machines takes no time and no additional cost. Most people already complain at the time spent queuing up for airport security...can you imagine if explosive swabs were routinely taken of hand baggage? Or were available to everyone on request?

The whole "damaged property" thing is simply irrelevant. You voluntarily submit your film for scanning along with your bag, or you remove it. The airport ought to have a sign warning about photographic film, and I note reports that some are doing this. You have the choice not to subject your film to the scan. You either don't pack it in the first place, or you choose to bin it at the security check. Or you take the gamble. That is the way the law will be interpreted. It's not the same as some security person fumbling your £3000 laptop and dropping it. Or the conveyor belt malfunctioning and ruining your luggage.

And I am totally with foc on attitude towards these people. Being compliant gets you a lot further than even a polite argument. "Making a scene" to me means drama, it means an argument - even if polite. And that's a one way ticket to trouble in an airport. I've never had any issues with any airport security people including LHR. That doesn't mean they haven't questioned me about the seven cameras and baggie full of film, or about the under water camera housing. It means that I am compliant when asked about them. I offer to unpack everything to show them, if that's what is desired. I describe the contents, in a calm voice that is neither angry nor impatient. And I get through without any real hassle, every single time. Whereas the number of people I see who show even slight loss of patience who are taken aside for extra checks, warned they might be denied boarding, given a verbal dressing down by the security staff....is more than I can remember. The staff at LHR are certainly busy and probably over worked. They know their job is important but generally looked upon as an inconvenience by travellers. they will not respond to small talk. It's a case of "speak when spoken to". They are under no obligation to cede to requests for hand inspection of film or any other items. They're working in what, by some metrics, is the world's busiest airport. And part of their job is to get people through quickly. When they do talk, they're generally OK. though I do recall one time when I was asked at LHR if I had electronic items in my hold luggage for a flight to San Francisco, I responded "cameras" and that didn't gel. They called me back a few minutes later and said "You have electronic items in here!"....but it was all sorted in a civilised manner.

I did try to email London Luton Airport yesterday to ask about their scanners, but that seems impossible. Questions about security seem to direct one to the Department for Transport web page and the general enquiries web form requires a flight number and date to be entered. Maybe a more general enquiry with the DfT is necessary.

petrk said:

In the context of this discussion, I wonder whether shipments of photo material from online stores are also at risk if they are sent by air?

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As we have adequately discussed before, postal services use totally different scanning methods and it is perfectly safe to order from abroad or post your films.

Paul Howell said:

I think I use FedX and label no X ray.

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Everything goes through X-ray - that's what the FedEx people told me when I wanted to ship my film and wrote this on the label. I'm assuming it is (was?) the same sort of machine as the old carry-on scanners.

I enjoy shooting film and will continue to take film with me on domestic flights as long as the TSA maintains its current policies.

It seems, though, that the rest of the world has moved on from film. Airports that long ago stopped hand inspection of film are unlikely to restart that process. To me, that is a shame as many travel destinations absolutely benefit from E-6 images. Hopefully, when COVID-related shipping delays have passed, I will be able to ship E-6 film back to the US for development. Unfortunately, I suspect most of my foreign photography will now be digital.

petrk said:

In the context of this discussion, I wonder whether shipments of photo material from online stores are also at risk if they are sent by air?

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I do not think anyone knows for certain, unless they work for one of the freight carriers and are insiders to how the process really works!

Discussion of shipment of film has generally been ASSUMED... maybe that regular shippers (Agfa, B&H) might have determined a manner to ship their photosensitive goods without CT scan being used, as they are on an approved list of pre-cleared shippers that has been set up with specific freight carriers..

However, an individual or even a smaller retailer might not have the same 'CT-free' status, even if using the SAME carrier to move their stuff to the same destination.
And due to the volume of goods, CT scan might be a random selection;, or things whch fit certain criteria or profile for being questionable in nature, so they go in the CT line.

No one really knows...or the terrorists would have figured it out, too...something to NOT let the public in gereral have any insight into the process.

Huss said:

Time it for when you are due for one. Then you'll save money and time on that Dr's visit. Just politely ask them if they notice anything amiss.

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Sirius Glass said:

I would not recommend dying over this. You may choose to yield or give in, but succumbing is a bit rash in this situation.

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I was talking about europe. Not Britain.

wiltw said:

make a scene, get a proctological search in exchange...no thanks. Pass.

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What country is that happening?
If you are afraid of border ants it is a sad way to live your life

Radost said:

What country is that happening?
If you are afraid of border ants it is a sad way to live your life

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I have travelled to close to 40 countries in my lifetime, and through that I understand that not everywhere is as accommodating as TSA in the US. In fact, two years ago I was in a smallish airport in Croatia, and encountered as comprehensive a check of my digital camera bag as I have ever gone thru even in my film shooting days...remember Croatia was once part of Yugoslavia, part of the communist bloc, and who knows what that security guard did before the changeover.
I do not 'fear'...I was being a bit facetious about making too much of a scene and being too much of an 'ugly entitled American'...those I have seen enough without becoming one myself, as they can be real jerks.

I checked with FedX, was told that they do X ray scan, but use machines that are safe for film for at least 2 scans. Buy film, pay extra and ship Fed X home one scan.

Paul Howell said:

I checked with FedX, was told that they do X ray scan, but use machines that are safe for film for at least 2 scans. Buy film, pay extra and ship Fed X home one scan.

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Thank you for actually checking!

Henning Serger said:

. And I think there is a good chance that one of these new guidelines will be a hand inspection for film. Every film photographer has the possibility to point that topic to their airlines, airports and members of parliament.
But discussions and complains here on photrio won't have any positive effect.
There is a good chance that hand inspection will become the new norm, on all airports on which CT scanners get installed.
Best regards,
Henning

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Henning, just browsing through the whole thread since its start in 2019 and I had forgotten your cheerful prediction, Henning, in Feb 2020. Most here outside of the U.S. appear to be on the point of resignation that it will not happen so is there any update on the prospect of hand inspection for those of us outside the U.S. or do you now believe that hand inspection is now a "lost cause"?

Thanks

pentaxuser