New (as of 2019) airport CT scanners

lauffray · Jan 31, 2020

perkeleellinen said:
I missed your post, sorry. Yes, I'd be happy tp contribute with UK data. We could add things like typical turnaround times for labs.

Alright folks, I've started the list https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/labs-and-film-stores-by-city.172831/
Feel free to add info from where you live

Frank53 · Jan 31, 2020

Don’t want to be the only scanner-damage-denier here, just looking for explanations.
3 weeks ago, I half exposed 2 Hp5 120 films, so 8 4,5x6 exposes on each film, the other halves unexposed.
1 film went in my daughters handluggage from Schiphol to JFK on Januari 11 and back on the same route on Januari 17.
Today I received that film back and developped both films in the same batch in Xtol 1:1.
They are hanging to dry now.
With my 66 year old eyes, I see no difference between the 2 films. Of course, after drying, I wil do some measurements.
While this film was in New York, I checked a few batches of film, I shot on trips, I made during 2017, 2018 and 2019, all flying from Amsterdam, while those scanners were installed and on none of these films I can find any irregularities.
What am I missing, what should I look for?
Regards,
Frank

spijker · Jan 31, 2020

Frank, did you go by the scanners which allowed you to keep laptops and fluids in your bag with the sign I posted here? According to this article in the NRC (in Dutch), there seems to be a mixture of scanners on Schiphol and they're still in the process of upgrading. Schengen or non-Schengen destinations seems to make a difference in scanner technology.

Frank53 · Jan 31, 2020

As far as I know, I have been asked to to keep everything in the bag several times since a few years now and I recognize those scanners. According to articles I found on the internet, they started testing the new scanners in 2016. From 2017 they were introduced and this process is completed in 2019.
The film I developed now and at least 2 batches I checked recently were scanned in the new scanners.
I’m not an expert, but I think we must not panic and wait for the tests that Kodak and Ilford will do.
I also wonder why there have not been more reports of damage since these scanners were introduced. A lot of film must have passed since first introduction. regards,
Frank

spijker · Jan 31, 2020

That may be some good news wrt these scanners. According to the NRC article, Schiphol seems to be the pioneer in this technology. Maybe they rely more on the algorithms and are able to reduce the radiation where other airports use a more brute force "algorithm". Just a guess although I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. Although user Babil experienced film fogging which he concluded here that it should have happened at Schiphol. I got a hand check at Schiphol in November so I can't comment on the Schiphol scanners. But my delta 400 film was severely fogged after the new scanner in Milan. Only a blind person wouldn't see the difference. So if you can't see anything different on your HP5 films than that means that your films are not affected.

What Ilford states in the FAQ matches my experience in Milan. One pass was sufficient to fog my delta 100 & 400. The 100 mildly and still usable, the 400 severely. It would be interesting if Ilford would do the same test at Schiphol as it does at Heathrow to see if there's a difference. We'll wait and see.

Frank53 · Jan 31, 2020

I just had a look at the dry negatives from the AMS to JFK return flight and compared to the control film, to the naked eye, they are absolutely the same. I will test for invisible differences in density, this weekend. This film was scanned by the new scanners.
Last trip I made was from Schiphol to Naples. I’m certain about the new scanners in that case as well and my five 135 iso 400 films came out undamaged.
I remember meeting those scanners at least once before, maybe more often, but did not watch that too carefully. Never found any damage.
Regards,
Frank

spijker · Jan 31, 2020

Mine was 120 film, no metal canister around it. But I still have an unfinished delta 400 in a film back from the same trip through Milan. I thought of throwing it out and not wasting any time and developer on it. But I'll develop it anyway and see if the metal film back made any difference. Not likely but it doesn't take much effort to be sure. The test that you did was very useful. But in line with your experience, I haven't seen any complaints on Analoog Foto Forum about the new scanners.

removedacct3 · Feb 2, 2020

My minor contribution to this thread. Today I called Schiphol Airport and asked if I am entitled a hand check when travelling with film. According to the customer-service employee one has always the option to request a hand check and most likely a senior member of the security staff will overlook this check. I am not by any means a frequent flyer, but I always put my film in a see-through toilet bag and pack my hand bag in such a way that the bag with films is on top so that I can swiftly present it for a hand check.

mooseontheloose · Feb 2, 2020

perkeleellinen said:
We need to accept that airports are a major hazard to film photography and we need to work through how to mitigate.

I imagine a website where you input your destination and the results show local shops that stock film, local places able to mail film to hotels and hostels, rapid turnaround labs or labs able to post films back to your home country. If there is local supply buy local, of not consider overland travel, mailing film to your destination or taking up painting...

I think this would work better as an app. The problems with websites and forums is that you have to search through endless pages in order to see if your airport/city has been mentioned. And then even if it has you have no idea how current the information is. An app where you could pull down a menu of countries - cities - airports/shops/developing would be easier and useful I think. However, the issue is not only gathering that type of data, but having someone who knows how to create the app to do so.

reddesert · Feb 2, 2020

mooseontheloose said:
I think this would work better as an app. The problems with websites and forums is that you have to search through endless pages in order to see if your airport/city has been mentioned. And then even if it has you have no idea how current the information is. An app where you could pull down a menu of countries - cities - airports/shops/developing would be easier and useful I think. However, the issue is not only gathering that type of data, but having someone who knows how to create the app to do so.

Apps require some central person to write them and update them. It's a lot of work, and the list would go out of date as soon as the maintainer didn't have time. For this application where the idea is to crowd source the information, an alternative would be a shared document, like a Google Doc or Google spreadsheet (or similar from other providers) or a wiki page. Anyone can make a shared Google doc, the owner would then have to decide whether to allow other people to edit it. For a wiki, maybe some editor of camera-wiki.org could create such a page.

perkeleellinen · Feb 4, 2020

Good comments. In the other thread someone mentioned having a person or two in each country acting as an intermediary or factor where film could be posted to and shipped on from.

AgX · Feb 4, 2020

And how would that person circumvent X-radiation?
Other being a gamble, based on chances for that are lower at this way?

Sirius Glass · Feb 4, 2020

AgX said:
And how would that person circumvent X-radiation?
Other being a gamble, based on chances for that are lower at this way?

Pack the film in double lead bags and take it with you onboard the airplane. That will force a hand search.

AgX · Feb 4, 2020

1.) my reply is referring to the advice above of using a middleman who handles private shipment in parallel to the user taking a passenger plane.

2.) a lead bag an the body will likely be detected in body inspection and than the bag or its content will go through the scanner unless one protests.
Why then not handing in the films directly and asking for a hand inspection?

Sirius Glass · Feb 4, 2020

AgX said:
1.) my reply is referring to the advice above of using a middleman who handles private shipment in parallel to the user taking a passenger plane.

2.) a lead bag an the body will likely be detected in body inspection and than the bag or its content will go through the scanner unless one protests.
Why then not handing in the films directly and asking for a hand inspection?

Because I have had first hand experience being refused hand inspection flying out of some European countries.

AgX · Feb 4, 2020

I do not know of a European country that gives you legal right on hand inspection.
And I wonder what makes you think that a lead bag would the security people make more inclined to do so. The only reason I can think of is that someone who never heard of film being affected by X-rays might wonder why a guy takes the hassle to schlepp a lead bag, and that something might be true of his story, so that the security guy might call his superior to check the film.

sperera · Feb 5, 2020

There is a clear distinction between Europe and USA on this it seems as an example.....I'm from Gibraltar and I contacted the Civil Aviation Authority and they confirmed Gibraltar Airport will be installing the new CT scanners end of 2021. I shoot motion picture film and I need to get the film to lab in UK so hence why this affects me. So until that time film can be taken through the hand lug X ray as has been the way up to now with no signs of damage

Sirius Glass · Feb 5, 2020

AgX said:
I do not know of a European country that gives you legal right on hand inspection.
And I wonder what makes you think that a lead bag would the security people make more inclined to do so. The only reason I can think of is that someone who never heard of film being affected by X-rays might wonder why a guy takes the hassle to schlepp a lead bag, and that something might be true of his story, so that the security guy might call his superior to check the film.

With the lead bags the image appears as a solid block and that arouses suspicion, leading to a hand inspection.

AgX · Feb 5, 2020

They also just could unpack it and run the shebang a 2nd time through.

destroya · Feb 5, 2020

don't know. i told my son i'd take him anywhere for a trip in April. he wants to go to paris. so i told him more than likely i cant take a camera cause they will ruin my film, and im not a huge fan of digital. so disappoint him or myself?

life is full of pointless choices.

john

reddesert · Feb 5, 2020

Why not just buy some film there and mail it back to yourself, or mail it to the lab from Paris? Or get it developed in Paris? Or maybe by April we'll have settled whether you can get a hand check in the US and Paris? I understand this is a huge issue in the long run (especially for sheet film) but turning it into an dilemma that would stop you or him from enjoying Paris seems like doomsaying.

howardpan · Feb 6, 2020

reddesert said:
Why not just buy some film there and mail it back to yourself, or mail it to the lab from Paris? Or get it developed in Paris? Or maybe by April we'll have settled whether you can get a hand check in the US and Paris? I understand this is a huge issue in the long run (especially for sheet film) but turning it into an dilemma that would stop you or him from enjoying Paris seems like doomsaying.

There seems to be lots of places where you can develop your film in Paris based on a quick search on Google. Here's one article published in July of 2019 that can get you started. https://www.discoverwalks.com/blog/photography-in-paris-practical-information/

I think these labs will be able to provide fast turnarounds if you use C41 film.

perkeleellinen · Feb 6, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
With the lead bags the image appears as a solid block and that arouses suspicion, leading to a hand inspection.

Once at a Berlin airport I had my camera and film in my bag, they all went through the machine. The operator asked to look into my bag as it came out and asked if my film cannisters were batteries. I said no they are photo film, she opened the canisters turned the films around in her hand, placed them onto a tray and ran them back through the machine! This was 2010.

perkeleellinen · Feb 6, 2020

destroya said:
don't know. i told my son i'd take him anywhere for a trip in April. he wants to go to paris. so i told him more than likely i cant take a camera cause they will ruin my film, and im not a huge fan of digital. so disappoint him or myself?

life is full of pointless choices.

john

You will have no problem at all buying film in Paris and no problem finding a rapid pro lab.

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 6, 2020

perkeleellinen said:
Once at a Berlin airport I had my camera and film in my bag, they all went through the machine. The operator asked to look into my bag as it came out and asked if my film cannisters were batteries. I said no they are photo film, she opened the canisters turned the films around in her hand, placed them onto a tray and ran them back through the machine! This was 2010.

This proves there are no standards airport checkpoints are educated on, and no standards the industry managed to get airport security to stick with.

Lead bags are all the same, not a chance they guarantee anything (except arrest perhaps, since you're trying to hide something, not exactly what you want to do these days at an airport).

Back in the film days, at least when one said "film for a camera", they would have likely known what that meant, today it's all different matter. If you're lucky to run into a security checkpoint with some knowledge of traditional photographic materials, it is likely or at least possible, you will get your hand check inspection. When not so lucky, it will be run through the machine time and as many a more times as they choose, nothing one can do about it. And let's face it, airport traffic is so vast, security issues so instilled, they do not care about your film, they want to get it done asap and get another person through.

If there is a chance for a fix, it needs to come from film manufacturers and large on line communities with some ties to politicians, and needs to be directed at US Congress and EU Parliament to start with. It will require training for security personnel to have any chance at consistent interpretation of how film is to be handled. Proper signs posted at check points (every checkpoint at every airport) so it is clear hand inspection of film is a law. BUT - are we seriously thinking this is possible? How can they ensure what it looks like a film canister ... it isn't? I'm sure it is possible to develop a perfectly safe scanning techniques for ANY emulsion speed, yet this is not the 80's when there was film to be expected in most travel bags.

The biggest problem right now is the uncertainty of what to expect. One will go through with no problem, another will have his film pulled out just to be sure it is what it says on the box it is. Do you have a chance of getting it back, or even having a satisfaction of winning damages in court? No! And the sympathy today is with more thorough checks not moving back in time and have next to none.

To me, if there is any chance of having 100% safe unprocessed film travel, it will only come from different scanning techniques, not return of common hand inspections.

New (as of 2019) airport CT scanners

Deleted member 88956

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