New Adox ISO 50 Film

[AgX]

Actually, I wasn't really interested in any absolute numbers and units in the X axis. I'd simply like to know how many stops it translates to, in order to get an estimate of this film's latitude.

In relative spectral response curves one used percentage scales as well as logarithmic scales, both related to the yielded density. This one is a logarithmic one.
This means one step on that scale is about 1.5 stops.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks, Lachlan, for your detailed reply

pentaxuser

 

[alvareo]

I’d bet it’s Agfa Aviphot Pan.

Not again!

I can't speak for 80s, but all my tests with Rollei IR 400 in Rodinal - I can barely sqeak 100ISO from that film, when using without filters or with deep red. For IR, the Rollei really needs a 680nm filter, and bracketing at 6, 12, 25 and 50 ISO has worked best for me. (I don't do much full-on IR so I've not gotten a good enough feel to use fewer brackets with it).

For what it's worth, Agfa-Gevaert offers Aviphot Pan only up to ISO 200

 

[Bill Burk]

I think the scale is units of LogE, as in ... each line is 1.0

I don’t think that it is 0.5 because I often study film over 3.0 units’ of exposure and I rarely see the shoulder (because most step wedges are 3.0). I aim to have the toe on the far left of my graphs, and a little over 3.0 across the x-axis fills my graph page.

If the scale were 0.5 LogE then six lines would cover 3.0 and, as I see, you would go from toe to shoulder. It’s not 0.5

 

[Rudeofus]

I’d bet it’s Agfa Aviphot Pan.

Compare the technical specs for Adox HR-50 with the data sheet for Aviphot Pan 80. Take a close look at the matching valleys in the characteristic curve at 500, 550 and 640 nm, and also compare the specs for max resolution at 1:1000 contrast of 280 lp/mm vs. 287 lp/mm. Since the toe of the Adox product, while very flat, extends far to the left of the Pan 80 toe, I predict vast pushing potential with this film. One thing, which is strange, is HR-50's shoulder at D=1.5, which is not reflected by Pan 80, but this may be due to the different developers being used.

 

[destroya]

So this is Rollei Retro 80s but even in the custom-made Adox developer it now only delivers ISO 50 or is this the real speed of Rollei Retro and the 80 is an exaggeration or does 80 refer to something else?

I am a bit puzzled

pentaxuser

the real speed is closer to 40 depending on the developer. I can get 64 using beutler. I get 40 in rodinal and pyro-HD

 

[jim appleyard]

I think I'll just stick to Pan-F.

 

[AgX]

this aerial speed v sea level speed is completely new to me.

-) The film speed does not change with the height of the location of taking.

-) Due to the low contrast of aerial views aerial films are typically designed a bit different from those for standard use, though that did not restrain Agfa from promoting the use of these films for terestrial use too.

-) The difference between aerial and common film speed is just the way the speed point is established, the respective standards differ. Thus any film likely yields different film speeds depending on which of the two measuring standards is applied.

 

[pentaxuser]

My conclusion so far, based on various responses, is that this Adox film may not be different enough from Rollei Retro 80s to make much of a difference for the user so price might well be the deciding factor and yet both Rudeofus and Bill Burk have given us ( well me at least) quite technical responses which might suggest otherwise.

Rudeofus, I note you have suggested vast pushing potential but I am unsure how this translates into practical improvements. Is it simply that this film could be rated at at least a stop higher or more with very little loss of picture quality? If so then this might be a substantial advantage in certain situations. A push to 100 might for instance make reasonably sharp hand-holdable pictures possible. A 2 stop push to 200 certainly would
Bill Burk, I completely failed to follow your response( my fault due to lack of knowledge and not yours in your response). I think you were clearing up a technical point which may or may not make a real practical difference in the film's behaviour compared to Rollei Retro 80s but again if you could simplify what you found I'd be grateful

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[alentine]

Adox is out with a new ISO 50 film.
https://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-hr-50-en/

Thanks faberryman for the great news.
Thanks indeed adox.
They are updating the progress in the new factory, more than magnificent.
http://www.adox.de/Photo/category/neubau2017/

I hope it is not overpriced .

That's the point.

 

[Bill Burk]

Bill Burk, I completely failed to follow your response( my fault due to lack of knowledge and not yours in your response). I think you were clearing up a technical point which may or may not make a real practical difference in the film's behaviour compared to Rollei Retro 80s but again if you could simplify what you found I'd be grateful

Thanks

pentaxuser

I only meant to explain why I thought the horizontal scale is 1.

Non-technical... If I am right about the scale, it would have good overexposure latitude.

Whatever they have done this may be an interesting film to try. If you miss Plus-X or Panatomic-X this might be sort of between them. The long toe and extended red sensitivity would make it a good portrait film for artificial (tungsten) light.

 

[Rudeofus]

My conclusion so far, based on various responses, is that this Adox film may not be different enough from Rollei Retro 80s to make much of a difference for the user so price might well be the deciding factor and yet both Rudeofus and Bill Burk have given us ( well me at least) quite technical responses which might suggest otherwise.

I have no experience with Rollei Retro 80s nor with this new Adox film, but my impression is that the Rollei product is straight Agfa Aviphot Pan 80, whereas for the Adox product they preflash the film before packaging. If I read these two reviews, the motivation for preflashing appears clear: in its original form Pan 80 has a sharp toe and high contrast, and therefore won't handle underexposure gracefully. The author of the review PDF still recommends it at EI160 with HC-110, a developer not exactly known for giving films high speed.

The Adox product is preflashed, which does a few things:

1. It gives some base fog. If you want to create B&W slides, get the Rollei, or get Silvermax if you want an Adox product.
2. The toe becomes rounder, which in turn means two things: you can get discernible shadow detail at lower light levels, but in regions where the 80s already has normal contrast the Adox film will still have low contrast.
3. If you push develop the Adox film, you can boost toe contrast to normal levels, but midtone and highlight contrast will also go way up (see page 4 on Agfa's Aviphot Pan 80 data sheet).

One thing which I would like to find out at some point: are all these new films based on some Aviphot product made from fresh master rolls coated specifically for these products, or are these cut from old, frozen master rolls? This may be irrelevant for these film's properties right now, but may give us some indication about how long these products will be around in future.

 

[Agulliver]

Agfa-Gavaert still manufacture Aviphot and other B&W films, as clearly stated on their website.

 

[miha]

If the film is indeed preflashed, how long does this effect last?

 

[Rudeofus]

It should last as long as any weakly exposed image, i.e. I'd assume it will last for years with some slow decay over time.

 

[AgX]

Agfa-Gavaert still manufacture Aviphot and other B&W films, as clearly stated on their website.

As with practically all manufacturers we do not know if the stuff a manufacturer offers is of an ongoing production, a batch-to-batch production with months of pauses inbetween or of an ended but stocked production.
Agfa retracted out of their aerial portfolio of 20 films alone within the last 10 years 13 films, the same time they introduced 2 new films.
This may be the reason for the questioning post you replied on.

But we should not forget that Agfa stated about the same time ago to be going to be the last man standing in film manufacture.

 

[lantau]

In the comments section of and Adox post on Facebook they say that the material they modify is from ongoing production and what they have at the moment is less than six weeks old.

 

[Anon Ymous]

I think the scale is units of LogE, as in ... each line is 1.0

I don’t think that it is 0.5 because I often study film over 3.0 units’ of exposure and I rarely see the shoulder (because most step wedges are 3.0). I aim to have the toe on the far left of my graphs, and a little over 3.0 across the x-axis fills my graph page.

If the scale were 0.5 LogE then six lines would cover 3.0 and, as I see, you would go from toe to shoulder. It’s not 0.5

I think it's 0,5 LogE. If you look at the straight part of the characteristic curve, it gets from about 0,5 to 0,9 density in one division. By your reasoning, that would be a "local" gamma of about 0,4, certainly low contrast that needs no taming. IMHO, it's 0,5 per division and this is a short exposure latitude film. It gets better with whatever treatment it takes, but it still looks rather limited.

 

[Film-Niko]

In the comments section of and Adox post on Facebook they say that the material they modify is from ongoing production and what they have at the moment is less than six weeks old.

Exactly.
And Adox is a very trustworthy company. Very reliable, open-minded and transparent in their communication.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Bill and Rudeofus for two helpful replies.

Bill, a pity about the disagreement about short or long exposure film between you and Anon Ymous. I note that he says that if you are right then he concludes, as does Rudeofus, that this is low contrast film.

I think we can all agree that it would be useful if there was a way of getting to a definite conclusion. More information from Adox may be the best way, I suppose.

pentaxuser

 

[Rudeofus]

Just like most B&W films out there, Agfa Aviphot Pan 80 film in its original condition can be low and high contrast dependent on development time, see the data sheet provided by Agfa. Adox did some preflashing, which lowers contrast for a development regime that would give rather high contrast with the original Aviphot Pan 80. The biggest difference between Pan 80 and Adox's product IMHO is the very gentle toe region of Adox's HR-50.

It look forward to see, how this gentle, round toe can be put to proper use by photographers.

 

[Anon Ymous]

...
Bill, a pity about the disagreement about short or long exposure film between you and Anon Ymous. I note that he says that if you are right then he concludes, as does Rudeofus, that this is low contrast film...

It seems I wasn't clear in my previous post. What I meant was that if, as I suspect, every division is equal to 0,5, then it is a high contrast film. If it wasn't a high contrast film, then it wouldn't need special treatment by Adox. Hope it becomes clearer now.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

It seems I wasn't clear in my previous post. What I meant was that if, as I suspect, every division is equal to 0,5, then it is a high contrast film. If it wasn't a high contrast film, then it wouldn't need special treatment by Adox. Hope it becomes clearer now.

Correct. The material as it comes in is not perfectly usable. In some developers results are already OK and ofcourse you can always overexpose and underdevelop but what we tried here is making it easy working for everyone and almost every developer. 50 ASA instead of 25 ASA is another advantage. With 50 ASA almost any outdoor scene can be captured without a tripod. Originally it was intended only for Super8 (as a replacement base material for Silvermax) but after all the tweaking we did, we got to like this emulsion and with the newly added long toe and decreased contrast on the lower end (whilst already having a shoulder in the highlights) this is now a fine film with outstandingly fine grain, superb image quality and all of it comes at a moderate price.

 

[AgX]

And in the 20 ASA range you already got that high-resolution fine/no-grain film/developer combo CMS 20 /Adotech.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

And in the 20 ASA range you already got that high-resolution fine/no-grain film/developer combo CMS 20 /Adotech.

Right we are working ourselves upwards on the ISO scale