NEW ADOX INKJET PAPER (and why it´s posted here)

Discussion in '[Partner] ADOX' started by ADOX Fotoimpex, Oct 1, 2015.

  1. ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner Partner

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    Some customers might now fear that ADOX is turning into a digital company because we offer Inkjet papers as well. Please be assured this will not be the case. The opposite is true. These two papers can help to support and save analog photography.

    How can this be?

    First we feel that there is a need today to support the “output market” (enlarging or printing) in general. Photographic manufacturers live on paper not on film and while film is increasing again paper is staggering.

    It seems that the value of high a quality print (retina is nothing in comparison) slowly shifts into oblivion due to convinience. So this market needs support and we want to do what we can.

    Secondly ADOX Fibre Baryta is coated onto the exact same baryta base like our high quality analog papers. So in promoting this inkjet paper we actively support the availability of the paper raw base for both our analog and digital paper. Other “Baryta”- called papers are not coated on this base. Photographers working in a hybrid way can actively support analog by using this paper for their digital needs. Since it´s of the highest quality and -as is ususal with ADOX- competitively priced here are good reasons to choose it.

    As a third thought we´d like to bring up that a factory can only put out products in a competitive way if it is running at it´s optimal capacity. Adding Inkjet to the range enables us to be overall more powerful and profitable which also boosts the analog range.

    We sincerely hope that the above explanations help to convince you that this a a good move foreward for analog and digital photography and not a threat to analog. We love film and paper to much to ever consider not making it anymore.

    And frankly, who´s never using a digital camera today at all and who never prints inkjet?

    So now you can choose the paper for your digital needs from your favourite analog brand as well.



    ADOX Fibre Baryta (INKJET-COLOR)

    ADOX Fibre Monojet (INKJET-B&W)
     
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  2. wildbill

    wildbill Member

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    I'm all for it. I've never understood why inkjet paper costs so much more than darkroom paper which has a short shelf life.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner Partner

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    You probably don´t want to hear the answer but the truth is that darkroom paper -and analog products in general- are sold way to cheap. Competetion is very strong due to the fact that almost all remaining players have to large factories and theoretically can produce 1.000 times what they produce right now. So they are willing to accept a very low price for analogue products in order to compete with the others and gain at least a certain quantity. What helps them is that almost all machinery, R&D, product implementation costs and such are long written off. Over in the Harman thread everyone was puzzled how little money Harman was making in respect to their turnover. It´s not different here or at Foma´s. We all supply our products to you with "trimmed" cost calculations at edgy prices. If we were to factor in R&D, machinery and "proper" administrative costs we would loose money (in the books). Inkjet is a more "healthy" market where there is more of a balance between manufacturers capacity and consumers demand. The players on this market do "real" cost calculations and factor in all these positions layed out above, then they come up with what the product must cost and ask for it. This is why Inkjet is more expensive than silver gelatin paper.
     
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  4. juan

    juan Subscriber

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    When will it be available in the U.S?
     
  5. miha

    miha Member

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    How come there is a weight difference among them: 250g (MCC) vs 270g vs 310g ?

    Still, great news again from ADOX!
     
  6. OP
    OP
    ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner Partner

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    Fibre Baryta is coated onto the photographic baryta paper fibre base. Fibre Monojet is not (at present) as it does not make a claim to be a baryta paper at all (and it isn´t). If we are to remanufacture the Monojet we will try to switch it over to this base as well (if R&D stays within reason). BTW Ilford won the TIPA Award 2012 with Gold Mono Silk (Fibre Monojet) coated on our (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

    The rest of the weight difference is depending on the other layers or inaccurate/differing measurement. I guess the water content of the fibres plays a large roll as well.
     
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  7. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    Mirko

    Can you coat a ortho film emulsion?? 25 ISO in roll 20 inch or 30 inch??

    Bob
     
  8. OP
    OP
    ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner Partner

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    Bob,

    we can coat 52 cm wide which equals 20 Inch. If you supply the emulsion and all R&D we can coat it.
    Can we make the entire product? No.
    There are many products which would be nice to have but actually bringing a silver halide product on a certain quality level to live is extremely difficult. You need to make hundreds if not thousands of tests and adjustements. This costs substantual amounts (tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands depending on the product). The more know how you already have the better but even in the best case it´s a major job and needs financing as well as skilled people to do it. So the first question is always who is the customer (or which is the market size onto which one can rely) and who pays for the product implementation. Then we can go on from there.

    Mirko
     
  9. Ken Nadvornick

    Ken Nadvornick Member

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    Actually, I do want to hear these answers. An uncomfortable truth is always preferable to a comfortable untruth.

    So it seems then that most of the industry exists on a knife's edge, where all it would take is a single moderately serious unforeseen event to topple a product line, or a manufacturer. A fire. A flood. Equipment breakdown. The loss of a critical employee. The loss of a critical chemical. Silver commodity price spikes. Appreciation of the development value of the land upon which a factory sits. Lack of product diversification. And a million other potential threats. This is indeed an interesting state of affairs.

    I have long maintained the need for film photographers to come to terms with their need to pay more for their supplies in order to maintain the incentive for continued manufacture. However, I must also acknowledge the sensitivity of price points for so many who just don't have the extra disposable money available to spend on those supplies.

    It seems a bit of a devil's bargain to be playing this game by such unforgiving rules.

    Ken
     
  10. OP
    OP
    ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner Partner

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    Exactly. Most points are valid except maybe silver commodity price spikes and the loss of a critical chemical because they should hit everyone in the same way (in a simplified model).

    But since this is a market economy dilemma it can also be resolved by market economy. If one of your desasters occurs it is likely to happen only to one player at once so one of the too many players jumps the cliff and this eases things for the remaining players making them more stable.
    This is really an interesting dilemma from an economist´s standpoint. If all players want to stay in business in the long term they would have to come up with something like OPEC did and voluntarily restrict their output. I don´t see this going to happen though.
    Lucky we (ADOX) are small, own our land and are located in what I would call the opposite of a prospering federal country ;-)
     
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  11. Prest_400

    Prest_400 Member

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    Mirko I find your insights very interesting as it shows us part of the industry and how it is going. It is great news that you offer a new range of products, and as you say, the new machine can do it, so it's a great decision. I remember the struggles you had with the Pan 400 project, which I guess is in total stand by awaiting for a market that can accomodate it.

    I haven't followed how Ilford inkjets are nowadays, and assumed that their inkjet range isn't produced anymore in Switzerland; adding to that, you now own the installation. So this new range is a relative to Ilford Galerie papers?

    Yesterday I was reading Ferrania's site updates and realised that many of the production material (chemistry, etc) was recovered from the old one and use the "Beta stage" new installations to make the first film run. I can imagine complicated it would be if they had to start from scratch.
     
  12. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    Ok so this may be an uncomfortable question you may or may not want to answer. You may not know the answer but you
    seem to have a very good handle on the whole manufacturing sector of photo products.

    Is Rollie ortho 25 manufactured by Ilford and therefore the same product as Ilford Ortho 25??
    QUOTE=ADOX Fotoimpex;1953796316]Bob,

    we can coat 52 cm wide which equals 20 Inch. If you supply the emulsion and all R&D we can coat it.
    Can we make the entire product? No.
    There are many products which would be nice to have but actually bringing a silver halide product on a certain quality level to live is extremely difficult. You need to make hundreds if not thousands of tests and adjustements. This costs substantual amounts (tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands depending on the product). The more know how you already have the better but even in the best case it´s a major job and needs financing as well as skilled people to do it. So the first question is always who is the customer (or which is the market size onto which one can rely) and who pays for the product implementation. Then we can go on from there.

    Mirko[/QUOTE]
     
  13. OP
    OP
    ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner Partner

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    I don´t like to comment on other manufacturers trade secrets. Why is this complicated for you to find out?
     
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  15. OP
    OP
    ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner Partner

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    Yes. The Ilfod names are: Gold Fibre Silk and Gold Mono Silk
     
  16. Mike Crawford

    Mike Crawford Member

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    Having used quite a bit of both Bob, would say they were very different films. Is Rollei Ortho made by Ilford? Have not bought any for a couple of years so maybe things have changed, but was doing a lot of portraits on the Rollei a few years ago and was totally different to Ilford. Assumed it was made by Maco.
     
  17. OP
    OP
    ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner Partner

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    Actually I disagree. Today film and paper is still cheaper than in the 1980ies and 1990ies (counting the percentage of household income which has to be used to buy it). Prices fell sharply when the market collapsed and never quite recovered since. If in a perfect market economy manufacturers profits are next to zero you only need a very small end user price increase in order to double them (if passed on down) ;-)
     
  18. OP
    OP
    ADOX Fotoimpex

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    Mike,

    no question they were different in the past (made by Fotokemika). Now they have a new source. I assume Bob is making reference to Film from about 1 year and younger.

    Mirko
     
  19. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I have used Rollie 25 in large Roll and I have Ilford 25 in large roll.
    I am worried that this item is such a exotic product for end user that the new owners of Ilford may scratch it.. I assumed both are made by Ilford.
    therefore my question to you Mirko as a supplier of film product as you would be positioned much better than me to know these answers.

    Not as easy to find out as you may think over here.




     
  20. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    At approximately $7.00 per sheet for 20 x24 Silver Gelatin Paper and assuming that it takes me 8 sheets to make an exhibition quality print. Silver prints are now pricing itself out of the common marketplace, and only those with $$financed projects are able to produce large body's of work.
    Not to mention I am paying four times square footage for my space than I did in the 90's

    At a certain point only the very rich will be able to afford silver prints made to high levels.
    With the new digital negative process to Pt Pd and gum over it is now 50% less in cost to produce the same quality alternative print.

    I feel the manufacturers pain... but there is an old saying--- there is no show without an audience.
    It is very difficult to do one off printing of work anymore as just the time , chemicals and set up of one image causes a single print price that
    scares the client.
    Not sure if Mike is seeing this in UK but for sure I have been moved to 1/2 day rates and full day rates, with the client purchasing and supplying the paper.

    What I am seeing is a growth in estate, or edition printing market, where groups are investing in a photographers body of work and financing the printing
    and of course finding markets to sell.

    Mirko -I would be interested in your opinions/ thoughts about long term storage of silver gelatin paper, and what you would consider what length of time from manufacture one would
    be wise to produce the print after good storage.



    UOTE=ADOX Fotoimpex;1953796540]Actually I disagree. Today film and paper is still cheaper than in the 1980ies and 1990ies (counting the percentage of household income which has to be used to buy it). Prices fell sharply when the market collapsed and never quite recovered since. If in a perfect market economy manufacturers profits are next to zero you only need a very small end user price increase in order to double them (if passed on down) ;-)[/QUOTE]
     
  21. Lachlan Young

    Lachlan Young Member

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    To the best of my understanding, the current production Rollei Ortho is an Agfa document film, Ilford Ortho+ is FP4+ minus red sensitisation - ie easy to make as a subset of a regular emulsion. There have been previous versions of Rollei Ortho made to various recipes.
     
  22. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    Thanks Lachian

    so who makes it Agfa- I thought all their film production was ceased?? and any idea on who distributes in NA.

    I have used it before for a specific workflow and it is incredible film.

    thanks

    Bob
     
  23. Lachlan Young

    Lachlan Young Member

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    Made at the Agfa Mortsel plant I'd imagine - Agfa is still very very involved in graphics & specialty films - take a look that their website http://www.agfa.com/sp/global/en/internet/main/index.jsp

    Their aerial film section has a couple of tech films you might find useful - http://www.agfa.com/sp/global/en/internet/main/solutions/aerialphotography/black_white/copying/index.jsp

    I enquired about the direct pos film, & was directed to a German reseller/ distributor - I recall 100 sheets of 10x10 on thick poly base were about 220EUR. They will custom cut to order - don't know the MOQ.

    The German part of Agfa Gevaert based in Leverkusen making still films/ papers was the bit that went belly up & has been reconstituted as Inoviscoat.
     
  24. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    Thank You - very helpful I will see where this leads me .
    QUOTE=Lachlan Young;1953796619]Made at the Agfa Mortsel plant I'd imagine - Agfa is still very very involved in graphics & specialty films - take a look that their website http://www.agfa.com/sp/global/en/internet/main/index.jsp

    Their aerial film section has a couple of tech films you might find useful - http://www.agfa.com/sp/global/en/internet/main/solutions/aerialphotography/black_white/copying/index.jsp

    I enquired about the direct pos film, & was directed to a German reseller/ distributor - I recall 100 sheets of 10x10 on thick poly base were about 220EUR. They will custom cut to order - don't know the MOQ.

    The German part of Agfa Gevaert based in Leverkusen making still films/ papers was the bit that went belly up & has been reconstituted as Inoviscoat.[/QUOTE]
     
  25. Sal Santamaura

    Sal Santamaura Member

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    Don't worry Bob. The absurd obsession with too large prints will eventually subside and sanity once again prevail.

    When discussing appropriately sized (i.e. much smaller that currently "fashionable") prints, the gelatin silver materials cost ceases to be an issue. Hang in there; it'll get better. :smile:
     
  26. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    But Sal 20 x24 is my sweet spot, not sure if I can get use to tiny prints.
    QUOTE=Sal Santamaura;1953796632]Don't worry Bob. The absurd obsession with too large prints will eventually subside and sanity once again prevail.

    When discussing appropriately sized (i.e. much smaller that currently "fashionable") prints, the gelatin silver materials cost ceases to be an issue. Hang in there; it'll get better. :smile:[/QUOTE]
     
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