Never tried MF before, where do I start?

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ntenny

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Most of my MF stable is TLRs and folders, and while I like both, they're very different animals. A well-made TLR may have more of a "normal camera" feeling to someone coming from modern 35mm gear; it basically functions like an SLR with bizarre ergonomics and no mirror blackout, whereas a folder might have more of a "weird old machinery" feel. All things considered, I'd look to TLRs first for someone new to MF.

Some of the 645 SLRs are relatively cheap and have more of a giant-version-of-35mm working style. My Mamiya 645 has basically put my 35mm gear out of a job for most purposes. Even a small MF SLR is pretty enormous compared to 35mm gear, though, and while they don't *look* much bigger than TLRs, gravity sez different!

-NT
 

elekm

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Among specific low-cost recommendations. Forgot to mention these are all folding cameras. And to include my earlier note that all of them should be serviced unless you can buy one that already has been serviced. Also, with these cameras listed below, there are no foam seals.

  • Zeiss Ikon Nettar: Always has a triplet ... either a Novar or the Nettar Anastigmat. They will have simple shutters: Klio, Telmar, Derval or Pronto(r).
  • Zeiss Ikon Ikonta: These will have either a Novar or a Tessar (premium lens) set in a Pronto(r) or Compur shutter. The earliest Novar-equipped models might also have simpler shutters.
  • Agfa Isolette, II and III: Will have either an Agnar, Apotar or Solinar (premium lens) set in a Pronto(r) or Compur shutter. The weakness of all Agfa cameras is a hardened grease that is now like concrete and plastic bellows that can develop holes in them. The III has an uncoupled rangefinder.
  • Kodak Duo 620: From its German Nagel factory, this is a great little 6x4.5 camera. It's 620, so you have to respool 120 film. And you'll need some blank 620 spools. It's easiest to buy some old Kodak 620 cameras for a few bucks. Just make sure that they have the film spool inside. This should have a Kodak Anastigmat or Tessar lens in a Compur shutter. The Kodak Anastigmat lens is very good. The so-called art deco model might have a Schneider-Kreuznach Xenar.
  • Kodak Vollenda 620: Also from the house of Nagel, most will be 6x9, but there also is a 6x6 camera. The 6x6 model has a Kodak Anastigmat lens set in a Compur shutter. Being a Kodak product, it is 620. Once Kodak introduced 620 film, it produced no more 120 cameras except for just one model, as far as I can tell.
  • Voigtlander Perkeo: A well-made German folding camera with either a Vaskar or Skopar (premium lens) in a Pronto(r) or Compur shutter.
  • Balda Baldax: Nice German 6x6 camera. The one that I have is a scale-focus model with the humble Schneider-Kreuznach Radionar lens.

I hope others will fill in the gaps with cameras that I've forgotten to include.
 
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ac12

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What is your budget? With the price drop of film cameras, you can get pretty good gear for a reasonable price.
Example, I bought a Hasselblad 500cm + 80CF + A12 back for less than what I paid for a Nikon D70.
And you can get even better, I have seen kits of RB67 body + 3 lenses listed for what a single Hasselblad lens lists/sells for. But the RB67 is one of the bulkier and heavier MF SLRs.
A good starter is a TLR like the recommended Yashicamat.
I personally would not go with a folder.

One thing to keep in mind is that many of these cameras are quite old; 30,40+ years old. Unless you are lucky and get a camera that has been recently serviced, most will require a CLA (clean lube adjust) at some point, and that will add to the cost. Grease dries and gets hard with age. A 1-piece camera like a TLR will cost less to do a CLA than a multi-piece camera like a Hasselblad (lens+body+back). Approx $250 vs $500 ($200+200+100). Any repairs will cost additional on top of the CLA charge.
 

removed account4

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hi sepia hawk

i hate to suggest this
but you might look for a baby speed graphic press camera and get a
roll film back for it. or a baby graflex slr and an adapter
to use modern film holders and roll film backs ...these cameras come up used
all the time at a reasonable price, roll film adapters too
interchangable lenses ( you can use barrel - non shuttered / enlarger lenses as
well as expensive ones or ones harvested off of junk store folders ).
have the range finder calibrated ( easy to do yourself ) for your main lens ..
you can easily sell it for what you paid ... and if you find film holders
you can shoot paper negatives with it instead of film.

have fun !
john
 

Dr Croubie

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I'm surprised that noone's mentioned the way that I got into MF film, and that's the good old Pentacon Six. For a start, they're cheap, and they're reliable, and they've got lovely lovely Zeiss lenses to go along with them. They've also got www.pentaconsix.com, for all the info you could ever want about anything ever made for them (same way that www.the-digital-picture.com got me to choose digital Canon over Nikon, information is king).

For a body by itself, maybe $60-100. Prism $50, or Kiev 60 Prism $10-40 plus prism adapter $20-30. Fresnel Screen $20. Biometar 80mm f/2.8 $80-100. Get all of that in a guaranteed working CLA'd kit for $200 (if you need names of trustworthy people on ebay to buy from just ask me, 'cupog' and 'grizzly33bear' are good places to start).

Some people shy away from the Kievs, but i've never had a problem with my Kiev 60 either. In fact, it looks so much more well built than my Pentacon 6 and the shutter just sounds a lot more definite (maybe my P6 has had a hard life, K60 was well taken care of and CLAd before I got it). Never had a problem with my Kiev 88CM Hasselbladski either. TTL Spot Prism for $50, *and* it fits all Hasselblad models too? Yes please.

The lens selection is great, Zeiss made 50/4, 80/2.8, 120/2.8, 180/2.8, 300/4. The Soviet ripoffs can be good, can be bad, the only thing that anyone agrees on is that their Quality Control wasn't the best (if it existed at all). Things like a Zodiak 30mm f/3.5 Fisheye, a direct ripoff of the Hasselblad version for 10% of the price (and maybe 95% of the performance).
Quality of others is reflected in the prices, an uncoated Volna 80/2.8 can be had for $20, hit or miss, and resell it if it's soft for the price of shipping and a test roll or have a nice paperweight or "soft focus" lens. (ok, i've never had one that bad, but i cleaned my Zeiss Biometar 80/2.8 and misaligned the elements, now it's Soft Focus only).

And the best part is, there's adapters to anything and everything. That's how I got into them, Tilt-adapter to my EOS, since bought a Shift adapter too (if only they did both), $100 or so each on fleabay. Can mount Kiev 88 / Hassy 1000 lenses on them with a tiny adapter ring for $20. Even better is an adapter to Mamiya or Contax or Pentax 645, I bought my Mamiya 645 a year before I got my first mamiya lens because I just used it with my P6 glass.
 

John Wiegerink

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First, I would figure out a budget.

You want reliability, so ask about certain makes, such as Kowa. Mamiya made a 645 SLR system that should be available at a decent price, but you'll want to check to see if the camera will need to be serviced.

A TLR is a nice introduction to medium format, although prices for Rolleiflexes and Rollecords are high at the moment.

A folding camera is the budget way to go. Some like the cameras with triplets and lower-cost lenses, and they seem to be a good option, although you should shoot these at f/8 and smaller for the best results.

Prices for folding camera can run from $10 to $500 or more. The Zeiss Ikon Ikonta 6x6 camera with a Novar or Tessar is a nice place to start. The Novar is the budget lens, and the Tessar is the premium lens. These will run you about C$15 to C$150.

It's not unusual for one or all of these cameras to need service. After all, these will be anywhere from 50 to 80 years old or more, and anything mechanical should be serviced.

A folding Ikonta or a folding Zeiss Nettar is an excellent place to start. If you look on the big auction the Nettars seem to be a little more abundant. I've had Tessar(Ikonta) and Novar(Nettars) lenses both and you can't go wrong with either. If you want cheap, but good look for the Nettar with the 75mm f6.3 Novar lens. I have two Nettars, one with the 75mm f6.3 and the other with a 75mm f4.5, both Novar lenses. If you stop down to f8 you won't know the difference between the Tessar or Novar. Actually the plus to the Novar is the fact that if you have a f4.5 or f3.5 version you have a sweet portrait shutter wide open. You can find coated or none coated versions of each lens. I have a nice uncoated Tessar in my Ikonta and for some shots it is just what the doctor ordered, but my favorite all-a-rounder is the Nettar 521/16 with a coated 75mm f4.5 Novar. These are KISS cameras and won't where your brain out trying to take pictures. I'd say buy something like I just suggested to get your feet wet and if you like roll film shooting, which I'm sure you will, then jump in with both feet and upgrade. I thing the cheapest your going to be able to buy with interchangeable lenses is something in the Mamiya twin lens field. A good C33, C330 or C220 are really great cameras at a very fair price. Another cheap one is the Koni Omega Rapid series. 6x7 format with some of the very best lenses I have ever used. If you are looking at a nicer, more expensive outfit then do what was suggested above and that's go to KEH's web site. Oh, and don't be afraid of something marked "BGN" on KEH's site, because most of the time it would be considered the same as excellent off eBay. If you get things narrowed down you can just post another question. Something like "Which one of these should I get"? I'm sure you'll get a bunch of help on that one also. Good luck! JohnW
 
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Sepia Hawk

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Thank you all very much.
When I say I am on a budget I mean I don't wish to spend more than $200-300 at this moment. I've already stretched my hobby budget by getting some lenses for my Canon F-1 and some darkroom equipment.

I like the idea of getting a TLR, probably some Yashica. I still need to read about other makes and models you recommended. I am not a big fan of getting a Pentax - they look to me like some over-sized 35mm cameras and I would prefer waist-level finder.

Also the square format of 6x6 appeals to me for some unexplainable subjective reason.
 

John Wiegerink

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Thank you all very much.
When I say I am on a budget I mean I don't wish to spend more than $200-300 at this moment. I've already stretched my hobby budget by getting some lenses for my Canon F-1 and some darkroom equipment.

I like the idea of getting a TLR, probably some Yashica. I still need to read about other makes and models you recommended. I am not a big fan of getting a Pentax - they look to me like some over-sized 35mm cameras and I would prefer waist-level finder.

Also the square format of 6x6 appeals to me for some unexplainable subjective reason.

Since you said you would like interchangeable lenses then you are the perfect candidate form a Mamiya C33 or C330. I have used these cameras in the past and they are great. The C330 I had even allowed 1:1 close-up macro work with parallax correction to boot. These were/are truly professional cameras. I don't have one anymore, but it's not because they aren't any good that's for sure. I have my deceased brother-in-laws like new Yashica 124G and while it's a nice camera and excellent in the optics department it can't hold a candle to a nice C330. The nice thing about the Mamiya cameras is that they fit your budget. Do look into them very closely. Have fun! JohnW
 

pbromaghin

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Dittos on everything John Wiegerink said. I have an Ikonta 521/16 with the Novar and it is really fun and easy to use, just fold it up and slip it into a pocket. Recently CLA'd, the shutter speeds are spot on. I also have the C33 with the 80, 105, 135 and 180 lenses. Image quality is outstanding with all of them. It's a bit heavy to carry around, but not something you can't get used to.
 

wiltw

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My suggestion to OP is to first decide the fundamental body type, which can take interchangeable lenses...

Rangefinder
Single lens reflex
Twin lens reflex

In all three types there are mechanically timed shutter mechanisms
In the SLR there are electronically timed shutters in newer models in addition to mechanically timed shutters in older models.

The suggestions so far are all over the map, because the OP has not sufficient bounded the search parameters.
'Inexpensive' is not necessarily confined to much older cameras...You can get into a fairly modern SLR like the Bronica ETRS for about $300 with lens(es), about 10% of the new price 15 years ago.
 
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Sepia Hawk

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I feel a bit overwhelmed. Having read all your suggestions and advice I think I will try to limit my preferences:

-I prefer either 6x6 or 645, with more preference for the square format of 6x6. My enlarger came with a 6x6 negative carrier and a 75mm lens, so I am ready.

-interchangeable lenses would be nice, but it is not that important, I think I will eventually get two medium format cameras - one with a fixed lens and another one with interchangeable lenses.

- my preferred style would be either TLR or a SLR with a waist level finder at the moment. Some rangefinders look lovely, but I want to depart from my 35mm/DSLR habits.

-I would prefer a model that is relatively easy and cheap to fix by a specialist. My own mechanical skills are limited and although I'd like to learn a bit about cleaning and fixing cameras, I am not gonna do it now.

-I have a Gossen Luna Pro light meter, so the camera does not have to have its own meter.
 

baachitraka

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If you are lucky you may get Rolleicord V(x) for less than Euro 100. Good luck.
 

BrianShaw

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... then seriously consider the reccomendations for Rollei Va or Vb. That was my "starter MF camera" in 1982 and I used it until a couple of years ago when I got the uncontrollable urge for a Hasselblad. I tried a Yashica along the way and didn't like it as much as the Rolleicord. Plus, Rollei accessories are easily available so i fyou want to expand your capabilities you can do that... except you'll be restricted to a single lens, which did not turn out to be too much of a limitation for me.
 

viridari

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Low cost + interchangeable lenses screams "Mamiya TLR" to me. See Mamiya C33, C220, C330 variants. I have some examples in my gallery of C330 with 80mm lens. I have some other lenses but to be honest I almost never take the 80mm off.

Though I must say, I occasionally see a Mamiya RB67 SLR with lens for under $200 on Craigslist. I don't own one (yet) but I imagine them to be a bit heavier than the C330. I could be wrong on that. As TLR's go I think the C330 is on the heavy side because it's a lot more complex than a Rollei or Yashica with non-removable lens.
 

elekm

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- Weight of Mamiya C330 with standard lens: 1.7 kg (3.7 lbs)

- Weight of Mamiya RB67 with back and standard lens: 2.5 kg (5.5 lbs)

- Weight of Rolleiflex Automat: 0.85 kg (1.9 lbs)

- Weight of Rolleiflex 3.5F/2.8F: 1.2 kg (2.6 lbs)

- Weight of Zeiss Ikon Ikonta 521/16 (6x6 folding camera): 0.45kg (1 lb) / this is approximate, because there were numerous models with different lenses and shutters. But this probably is reasonably accurate. The Super Ikonta models -- particularly the 531/16, 532/16 and 533/16 -- weigh significantly more (and cost more, too).
 

John Wiegerink

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- Weight of Mamiya C330 with standard lens: 1.7 kg (3.7 lbs)

- Weight of Mamiya RB67 with back and standard lens: 2.5 kg (5.5 lbs)

- Weight of Rolleiflex Automat: 0.85 kg (1.9 lbs)

- Weight of Rolleiflex 3.5F/2.8F: 1.2 kg (2.6 lbs)

- Weight of Zeiss Ikon Ikonta 521/16 (6x6 folding camera): 0.45kg (1 lb) / this is approximate, because there were numerous models with different lenses and shutters. But this probably is reasonably accurate. The Super Ikonta models -- particularly the 531/16, 532/16 and 533/16 -- weigh significantly more (and cost more, too).

Oh yes, if it's weight then an old molding folder is the way to go for sure. That's kind of why I suggest a Nettar or Ikonta too, so he can shoot with his Canon F1 and carry along the little folder for a medium format shot. That's why I like my little folders 'cause they are easy to carry everywhere. JohnW
 

markbarendt

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Yep the RB is heavy, comparatively, but so is my F5 with my 80-200 f/2.8, put either on a mono or tri-pod and they are really a joy and the RB system is so flexible.

Given the op's preference for 6x6 and interchangeable lenses the Mamiya TLR would be a great choice.
 

Dr Croubie

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- Weight of Mamiya C330 with standard lens: 1.7 kg (3.7 lbs)

- Weight of Mamiya RB67 with back and standard lens: 2.5 kg (5.5 lbs)

- Weight of Rolleiflex Automat: 0.85 kg (1.9 lbs)

- Weight of Rolleiflex 3.5F/2.8F: 1.2 kg (2.6 lbs)

- Weight of Zeiss Ikon Ikonta 521/16 (6x6 folding camera): 0.45kg (1 lb) / this is approximate, because there were numerous models with different lenses and shutters. But this probably is reasonably accurate. The Super Ikonta models -- particularly the 531/16, 532/16 and 533/16 -- weigh significantly more (and cost more, too).

Weight of Pentacon Six with 80mm f/2.8 Biometar and TL Prism: 1.7kg and $200 Fully Working (surely cheaper elsewhere but less guaranteed)
 

elekm

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Rolleiflex SL66: 1.92 kg (4.25 lbs.)

This is an awesome camera with interchangeable backs, finders and lenses. The lenses are still rather expensive, and most cameras should be serviced.

You can reverse the standard f/2.8 80mm Planar for close-up work.

There is a special bracket that makes the camera very easy to handle, but like many heavy cameras, a tripod is a good accessory.

This camera probably is way out of your budget unless you chance upon a great deal, which happens from time to time.
 

Mark Fisher

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Trust me, do 6x6. It is a different way to look at the world. Mamiya C220 is a bit lighter than the C330, but takes the same lenses. People talk about the Mamiyas being heavy, but I defy anyone to find a lighter 3 lens kit....especially since you can get away with a really light tripod (never tilt to the side, short, leaf shutter and no mirror). I don't think you could do better for the price.
 

John Wiegerink

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Trust me, do 6x6. It is a different way to look at the world. Mamiya C220 is a bit lighter than the C330, but takes the same lenses. People talk about the Mamiyas being heavy, but I defy anyone to find a lighter 3 lens kit....especially since you can get away with a really light tripod (never tilt to the side, short, leaf shutter and no mirror). I don't think you could do better for the price.

I agree with you 100% and I don't even own one anymore. KEH has a couple of nice C220's for a good price and the big auction site does too. I have a friend who has many more cameras than I do and I have tooooo many, but he still hangs onto his lovely C220 and prefers it to the C330. Me, I like the cocking on advance of the C33/C330 over manually cocking of the C220. But like my friend says, "Less to go wrong and lighter"! A lot of "bang for the buck" in a TLR Mamiya that's for sure. OMG I sound like a Mamiya sales rep! JohnW
 

Argenticien

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[...]my C330 is now accompanied by just two lenses, and the whole package (with waist-level finder) fits nicely in a very small camera bag - like one designed for a 35mm SLR with a single 28mm-85mm kit lens.

This is a good point that calls for clarification of the OP's subject and composition preference. I saw mention of family travels, but the question is, will he be doing wide landscapes on those travels, portraits, or (for example) bird-watching? The C330 body is large(-ish) and heavy, but its short lenses are small. Once your camera bag has made the up-front investment of space to carry the body, you can chuck in the normal 80mm lens and the wide 55mm (for broad landscapes) in spare corners. (Do not attempt with, say, the original 55mm for a Pentax 6x7!) But if you were going to be chucking in the Mamiya's 180mm and 250mm, it would be a very different question. That's where the fact that each of its lenses is a twin-lens starts to hurt.

--Dave
 

memzilla

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Hi Christopher,

Allow me to add my 2 cents (or 2 nickels, as I see you're in Canada). I think you might need to adjust your specifications or buy two cameras to get everything you're looking for.

I'm on my third MF camera (though I'd probably still be on my second had my cat not pulled the second one off of the coffee table).

My first MF camera was a Yashica Mat 124G. This was many years ago when MF prices were higher and it was one of the few options that fit my budget. I didn't do my own developing at the time, so I would drop my colour film off at a lab and get back the negatives and some little 4x4 inch prints. Needless to say, being used to 4x6 inch prints from 35mm, I wasn't too impressed with the little square proofs. When I did get enlargements, I found it difficult to find square frames. On the plus side, the pictures were nice and sharp and the camera was light and portable, and people seemed less intimidated by a TLR than an MF SLR. I found it difficult to adjust to the laterally-reversed image in the viewfinder, particularly when moving the camera. Being used to taking photos at eye-level, I often found myself standing on my toes trying to look into the waist-level finder while raising the camera as high as I could. I guess that's why they call it a waist-level finder. Ultimately, I found the Yashica too limiting and sold it.

My second MF camera is a Mamiya M645 1000S. It was more expensive, but since it was modular, I was able to buy it in parts. Buying it turned out to be a bit of a shopping nightmare. The film insert I bought didn't work, so I exchanged it the next day. Within less than a week, the focus ring on the lens seized-up. I returned it and got a refund and bought another. The meter in the prism never worked, and after two lengthy repair attempts, I got a refund and bought a non-metered prism. After all that I discovered that the camera had an intermittent light leak. Despite all that, I still liked it better and got better photos than with the Yashica. A set of extension tubes allowed me to take close up photos and an auto winding grip gave a more 35mm-like handling to the camera. On the minus side, it was heavy. I bought a special strap to make it more comfortable, but I don't think around the neck is necessarily the ideal way to carry an MF SLR. Being a 645 camera, it gave me 15 shots per roll instead of 12, and more acceptable 4x5 inch proofs from the lab. (Though I understand some other 645 cameras give you 16 shots per roll.) Unfortunately, I left it with the strap hanging off the coffee table one day, and our new cat, who liked to play with any string-like object, was seen scurrying away after a loud crash to the floor and I found the camera and prism separated on the floor and they would not snap back together.

Rather than getting the 1000S repaired, I decided to replace it with a newer M645 Pro TL, which had come down in price dramatically since I had bought the 1000S. I decided to go with another Mamiya since I would be able to use my existing lenses and extension tubes. The most exciting features for me were the interchangeable film backs and the (working) metered prism. One downside is that the flash shoe is on the side of the camera, unlike the 1000S, which had a flash shoe on top of the prism, 35mm-style, so you'll need either a bracket with a flash shoe, or a handle mount flash. You also need either a special adaptor or a certain auto-winding grip to be able to use a screw-in cable release. Other than those issues, I'm very happy with the M645 Pro TL.

When I bought my first 35mm camera, the advice I read recommended getting a 50mm lens because it would give sharper pictures than a 'kit zoom'. I took that advice and have never regretted buying that wonderfully sharp 50mm lens, but after 6 months, I found myself wanting a zoom lens really really badly. Quality speaks for itself, of course, but I think there is definitely something to be said for versatility. What good is it to have the sharpest lens if you can't get the picture you want with it? If you can only afford one camera right now, I would suggest starting with one that is versatile enough to take all of the kinds of photos you want to capture.

The most important piece of advice I can give from my experiences is to thoroughly check all the equipment you buy right away, so that you can return anything that isn't working. All three of the MF cameras I have bought have had issues. The Yashica had a badly corroded battery in it, which the store cleaned out for me. The first M645 Pro TL body I ordered would not couple with the aperture ring on my lenses. I exchanged it. One of the film backs I ordered with the M645 Pro TL does not reset the film counter. Unfortunately, I did not discover this until after the warranty period expired.

Thanks for reading my story and I hope there are some useful bits of information in there for you.

If I was in your position, I think I would go with two cameras. An MF SLR for general picture taking and an automated rangefinder with a built-in flash or hotshoe, if you insist on using MF for family travel photos.

If you try a waist-level finder and decide you want to go that way, it might be best to choose a square format camera as viewing a vertical shot through a waist level finder when the camera is turned on it's side will be awkward.
 
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