Nettar not winding film tightly

distributed · Aug 25, 2021

I recently bought a post-war 6x6 Zeiss Ikon Nettar for cheap. The camera is mostly in reasonable condition and, judging by the negatives, quite an acceptable picture taker.

However, it does not wind the film tightly. When taking out the exposed roll, I can see one or two revolutions of the backing paper outside the flange diameter. Also, the film seems to be wound irregularly, in a somewhat oval shape. Needless to say, there are light leaks on the last ~3 images of the roll.

I have attached pictures of the inside of the camera below. There's a somewhat corroded "tongue" that presses against the already wound film. Between two rolls I have tried to pull it up a bit, with seemingly no success.

Is there anything I can do to improve the situation?

cramej · Aug 25, 2021

You can do what the Holgas do and glue a squishy foam block on both sides to maintain tension.

BrianShaw · Aug 25, 2021

It’s more likely looseness on the supply side than on the take up side that’s a problem. I’d clean up that corrode, though…

Auer · Aug 25, 2021

BrianShaw said:
It’s more likely looseness on the supply side than on the take up side that’s a problem. I’d clean up that corrode, though…

I agree, the supply side has two methods of tensioning that easily could be a tad loose at this stage and the OP should giver them a careful refresh...

distributed · Aug 25, 2021

Thanks for the insights regarding the supply spool. I didn't think of it, but it makes complete sense.

How would you go about a careful refresh on the suplly side? Try to pull up the tab to make it press more strongly against the backing paper?

BrianShaw · Aug 25, 2021

Basically, yes. But especially check those parts that look like they put pressure on the spool ends. Tensioning by the spool end will be a lot more consistent than tensioning by the film/paper, which is constantly getting smaller (and looser from the tensioner)

MattKing · Aug 25, 2021

distributed said:
How would you go about a careful refresh on the suplly side? Try to pull up the tab to make it press more strongly against the backing paper?

Yep - be gentle

Nicholas Lindan · Aug 25, 2021

Both sets of springs are important: The supply side springs provide tension at the beginning of the roll, when, obviously, the take-up spring is out of action. The take-up spring provides tension at the end of the roll, when the supply side springs loose their mechanical advantage. Try shimming up the supply side spring with a bit of cardboard between the camera body and the lip of the spring. Trying to bend the spring into shape runs the risk of cracking it as the bend where the spring is riveted to the body has probably been weakened with fatigue. You can use a fresh roll of film to judge the tension/shimming. Use a bit of Scotchbrite pad to take all the corrosion and crud off the take-spring, it needs to be smooth. You don't want the rust smoothed off on the backing paper - because then the rust just contacts the next wrap of film emulsion.

gone · Aug 25, 2021

If you pull gently and firmly on both sides of the tabs, you should be able to get more tension on them. They're not high tensile steel and will bend, but you have to equalize the tension when you bend them up. Or, stuff a rolled up bit of tape under the tabs.

One of the things I learned w/ folders is to give the wind-on knob a little bit of tension to make sure it's taut before taking the shot.

distributed · Aug 26, 2021

BrianShaw said:
Basically, yes. But especially check those parts that look like they put pressure on the spool ends. Tensioning by the spool end will be a lot more consistent than tensioning by the film/paper, which is constantly getting smaller (and looser from the tensioner)

You mean the parts that rotate the spool, correct? There is only one structure that engages on of the cross slits in the spool, directly below the wind knob, visible in the first pictures. In all other three places, the spool is held only by pins that do not constrain the rotation of the spool. Around the engagement with the wind knob there is a bit of play as the slits are wider than the ridge that engages it. I think this play is present given the dimensions of the wind mechanism and the spool, so I am not sure what I could change regarding this.

Nicholas Lindan said:
Try shimming up the supply side spring with a bit of cardboard between the camera body and the lip of the spring.

Thanks for the clarification regarding the two springs, this makes sense. I will try the cleaning and shimming you propose for the next roll of film. I have a question about the shimming, though. Without shimming, the spring works as just that, a spring. If I use something not very springy like cardboard to shim it (I understand this to mean: to raise it), it will provide a stronger force against the backing paper earlier on (whe the roll is almost full, looking at the supply side), but also be less elastic which means that it will not bend out of the way like the spring. Is the shimming risky?

I noticed that the supply side has an additional pair of springs that bend toward the flanges of the roll. What is their purpose?

distributed · Aug 26, 2021

momus said:
One of the things I learned w/ folders is to give the wind-on knob a little bit of tension to make sure it's taut before taking the shot.

Is it enough, in your experience, to just tighten a bit or do you need to move the film a couple of millimetres?

Auer · Aug 26, 2021

distributed said:
I noticed that the supply side has an additional pair of springs that bend toward the flanges of the roll. What is their purpose?

View attachment 283652

Even pressure regardless of the amount of film left on the roll (Less film on roll = reduced tension if just using the middle metal tab type "spring"). See Brians post above, #6.

distributed said:
Is it enough, in your experience, to just tighten a bit or do you need to move the film a couple of millimetres?

Just enough to feel a light resistance, Preferrably not advancing the film at all. Learn by feel and observing the # in the red window as you tighten.

distributed · Aug 26, 2021

Ah, i was only able to make that connection now!

About the tightening: got it. By the way, I noticed that when the camera is bumped a bit, I can see that the backing paper moves a bit, may a millimetre or two. It's quite easy to see when the backing paper number was precisely aligned before but not after

BrianShaw · Aug 26, 2021

I would focus on the supply spool tensioner that touches the edge of the supply spool first. My belief is that the center “tensioners” really aren’t intended to tension during winding but are to help ensure the film roll is held right and does not unspool when loading and removing. Hence they only supply tension when one spool or the other is full. Too much tension may be as bad as not enough tension and if that tension is focused on the film itself I’d expect some deformation to occur.

Put an empty film spool in the supply end… it might make more sense when visualizing, plus you will be able to feel the current and adjusted tension but turning the spool.

MattKing · Aug 26, 2021

BrianShaw said:
plus you will be able to feel the current and adjusted tension but turning the spool.

I expect that Brian meant to post "by turning the spool" here.
Ain't auto--correct amazing?

BrianShaw · Aug 26, 2021

MattKing said:
I expect that Brian meant to post "by turning the spool" here.
Ain't auto--correct amazing?

Ain’t arthritis fingers and cataract eyes amazing too. LOL

Yes, I meant what Matt said!

Helge · Aug 26, 2021

Never heard of this before.
Are you ensuring the film is taut when you load it?
The pressure plate should also have some say. Is it reasonably level and springy?

takilmaboxer · Aug 27, 2021

I've had this problem with my Zeiss folders in the past. In my experience the problem is on the supply side. What works for me is to hold my left thumb on the roll at the supply side when first starting the roll. Insert the leader into the take up reel, and during the first few turns, keep pressure on the thumb, so as to create tension on the film as it is taken up. All but one of my folders respond to this technique. For the one that doesn't, I remove the film in the dark and place it int a plastic film can, not to be opened except in the dark. If that film is going to a lab, I attach instructions not to open the can except in the dark. Good luck!

Helge · Aug 27, 2021

takilmaboxer said:
I've had this problem with my Zeiss folders in the past. In my experience the problem is on the supply side. What works for me is to hold my left thumb on the roll at the supply side when first starting the roll. Insert the leader into the take up reel, and during the first few turns, keep pressure on the thumb, so as to create tension on the film as it is taken up. All but one of my folders respond to this technique. For the one that doesn't, I remove the film in the dark and place it int a plastic film can, not to be opened except in the dark. If that film is going to a lab, I attach instructions not to open the can except in the dark. Good luck!

Isn’t that pretty much standard procedure with any simple folder or box?
Pretty intuitive thing to do if you have even the slightest amount of mechanical empathy.

Nicholas Lindan · Aug 27, 2021

The reason the backing paper is loose when you remove the spool is because of the takeup side spring. This spring only comes into play (or is only needed) for the last few wraps after the backing paper leaves the supply spool; that's why shimming it up a wee bit (1-2mm) with a bit of cardboard from the back of a writing pad might help. The spring needs to be a bit stiff when it contacts the roll. My Nettars all have film in them or I would do a bit of experimentation with shimming and expound further.

takilmaboxer · Aug 27, 2021

Helge said:
Isn’t that pretty much standard procedure with any simple folder or box?
Pretty intuitive thing to do if you have even the slightest amount of mechanical empathy.

Hopefully! But I'm talking about a higher level of tension; and what works for me. In any case please report back when you solve this pressing problem.

distributed · Aug 29, 2021

Helge said:
Never heard of this before.

What exactly are you referring to; Nettars not winding film tightly or something else?

Helge said:
Are you ensuring the film is taut when you load it?

Yes, I also hold a thumb on the supply spool while loading to make sure the backing paper is taut.

Helge said:
The pressure plate should also have some say. Is it reasonably level and springy?

To me it feels no different than the pressure plates in my other cameras.

I have shimmed both tabs with cardboard now and loaded a film. I will get back to this thread once I have shot that roll, though that may be a couple of weeks off with my usual shooting speed Thanks for all the help on the subject, guys.

Helge · Aug 29, 2021

distributed said:
What exactly are you referring to; Nettars not winding film tightly or something else?

Yes, I also hold a thumb on the supply spool while loading to make sure the backing paper is taut.

To me it feels no different than the pressure plates in my other cameras.

I have shimmed both tabs with cardboard now and loaded a film. I will get back to this thread once I have shot that roll, though that may be a couple of weeks off with my usual shooting speed Thanks for all the help on the subject, guys.

You should find a dummy roll and spool to experiment on, would make progress much easier.

And no, I never heard of the slack film/paper problem before. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist of course. It’s just curious.
And how does it develop? Someone played around with the springs? Or someone left a roll for too long in the camera?

Helge · Aug 30, 2021

Just picked up an old Nettar I never used. The second last model, with the red signal in the finder.

I ran an expired roll of Provia through it. Slack as fuck.
Seems to have developed a tight paper towel like roll, that is lose around the spool, so I have some hopes for my measly efforts.

I investigated the differences in film transport between it an my Ikontas and other Nettars. The main center spring of the release side, indeed seems to be less tight/thick.

What seems however to be the main and possibly only problem is the shaping of the spool holders.
On the Ikontas and older Nettars the bottom peg seems to be longer, the wider "outer" stub rests against the spool working as a break.

Nettar

Ikonta

This is what tightens the film.
Perhaps older spools where slightly longer?

It can probably be fixed with a ring of appropriate material. Perhaps just a smooth metal washer or two held in place with a thick gummy lubricant.

This is the other side of the spool release side. These seem to be the same length and basic functionality, though shaped differently.

The take up side is also pretty loose. Same problem. But probably less critical due to the back rotation lock.

Edit: Just had a look at my even older forties Ikonta. Same short pegs. Even a lose spool seems to be slightly tighter though.
Perhaps the splayed spring is really to blame here. It rests on edge of the spool and probably works as a break too.
Spools ends where slightly wider once, right?

Edit to the edit: OK it's definitely the splayed springs. Trying to bend them up is probably risky, since they are impossible to bend back. Too much tension could be problematic too. Felt feet for furniture, cut to size is probably a good candidate for shims under the springs (as close to the center as possible probably). But maybe also some small cushions on top might be good.
Need to experiment a bit tomorrow. ;-)
The pegs length only control the up and down movement on closer observation.
Still might good to have a look at maybe.

Helge · Aug 31, 2021

Maybe some of the Nettars bad rep in some quarters of the web, really stems from bad or misaligned film transport? The tightness of the film certainly has some bearing on the flatness of film, which again affects the corner and center sharpness in sometimes unpredictable ways.

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