Nervous about funneling my fresh Xtol into bags... the manipulation part

Craig · Aug 9, 2022

As a reference point, I have used the wine bags for some time. I have done densitromity testing between Xtol that was 3 years old stored in a wine bag and a fresh batch and I could measure no difference when developed in a Jobo.

I would think the weakness of a glass bottle is not the bottle itself, but the cap. Is that impervious to oxygen and does it seal very well? I've found that many caps don't seal particularly well. I used to store paper developer in a glass bottle and it didn't last very long.

Sal Santamaura · Aug 9, 2022

jay moussy said:
...I too would prefer glass, but the marble (or inert gas), I do not see myself doing that.

Sal Santamaura said:
...Searching the archive at PHOTRIO would reveal any number of threads on this subject, many of which include my posts describing the 20 250ml Boston Round glass bottles I use to store five liters of XTOL stock. Each bottle is used for a single batch of film, thereby going from full to empty and never needing ancillary oxygen elimination methods...

Make a one time investment in "one-shot" size bottles and no marbles or gas is necessary.

MattKing · Aug 9, 2022

The opinion of Bob Shanebrook (laser) is an opinion I would pay attention to. He knows a huge amount about how different materials interact with photographic materials.
I too have been frustrated in attempts to learn what materials are used in products not designed for photographic purposes. Those who know a lot about furniture refinishing are unlikely to take into account the requirements for storing photographic chemicals when they tweak the design of the bags they use for storing shellac or wood stain (that is what StopLoss bags are designed for).
But laser's post did state that it was his opinion - not a prohibition or rule.
Why do people get so riled up when people express well formed opinions based on significant relevant experience?
And why do people see fit to attack others who disagree with opinions?
To those who respond to things they disagree with by personifying the response - whether long time members or new participants - cool it, or the thread will be moderated.

madNbad · Aug 9, 2022

jay moussy said:
No! I will make my 5 l stock batch as instructed.

I was mentioning 1:1 as a way to say that my use will be one-shot, standard work solution - until I understand replenishing better.

I too would prefer glass, but the marble (or inert gas), I do not see myself doing that.

What type of container are you using? Wine bags or something similar?

bluechromis · Aug 9, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Once I've run through all this Xtol that I have, I'll have to give Legacy Pro a go... A bit pricy up here, though. By the time I get through all my Xtol, I'll be retired... and I'll really be feeling the pinch then!

Sirius Glass · Aug 9, 2022

Craig said:
As a reference point, I have used the wine bags for some time. I have done densitromity testing between Xtol that was 3 years old stored in a wine bag and a fresh batch and I could measure no difference when developed in a Jobo.

I would think the weakness of a glass bottle is not the bottle itself, but the cap. Is that impervious to oxygen and does it seal very well? I've found that many caps don't seal particularly well. I used to store paper developer in a glass bottle and it didn't last very long.

I found that squeezing glass bottles does not force air out and the adding marbles make bottles heavier, harder to handle and still did not always remove all the air.

bluechromis · Aug 9, 2022

Just an alternate thought... This thread discusses a variety of strategies to store Xtol type developers in airtight containers so it will not be damaged by oxygen. Exposure to the oxygen from air is part of the problem. But it might be said that the water used in making the solution is another part of the problem because it can communicate any oxygen present to the ascorbate in the solution. Jordon formulated the home-mixed Xtol clone called Instant Mytol. With one version of that, the part "A" stock solution is mixed not in water but glycol. This takes an alternate approach to shielding the ascorbate from oxygen because glycol does not allow it to access the ascorbate the way water does. The liquid stock has a good shelf life and because it is concentrated, takes up less room. One needs to be able get the materials, but it is inexpensive. There is the complication that one needs to toss in the sulfate with the "A" solution when making the working mix. https://photosensitive.ca/easy-film-developers/

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 9, 2022

Reasonably priced Glycol is difficult to source up here. Shipping it up here from the US is ridiculously expensive.

Sirius Glass · Aug 9, 2022

bluechromis said:
Just an alternate thought... This thread discusses a variety of strategies to store Xtol type developers in airtight containers so it will not be damaged by oxygen. Exposure to the oxygen from air is part of the problem. But it might be said that the water used in making the solution is another part of the problem because it can communicate any oxygen present to the ascorbate in the solution. Jordon formulated the home-mixed Xtol clone called Instant Mytol. With one version of that, the part "A" stock solution is mixed not in water but glycol. This takes an alternate approach to shielding the ascorbate from oxygen because glycol does not allow it to access the ascorbate the way water does. The liquid stock has a good shelf life and because it is concentrated, takes up less room. One needs to be able get the materials, but it is inexpensive. There is the complication that one needs to toss in the sulfate with the "A" solution when making the working mix. https://photosensitive.ca/easy-film-developers/

I just follow the instructions and use very warm water and stir for longer than necessary to make sure that the solid particles stay in solution. Then add part B slowly while stirring. I have very hard water and have never had a problem with iron in the water. If I were to use glycol I would use it with Pyrocat HD instead.

bluechromis · Aug 9, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Reasonably priced Glycol is difficult to source up here. Shipping it up here from the US is ridiculously expensive.

Dang. The "green" anti-freeze is not an option?

mshchem · Aug 9, 2022

I use glass, PET, PP...I have stopped using beverage bottles, even though they work quite well. Can't imagine having a kid get into anything.
As long as I'm preaching, flammable liquid should be safe too.

mshchem · Aug 9, 2022

I have been buying 8, 16, and 32 fl.oz bottles from glassbottleoutlet.com I get Polyseal cone type caps. I used to bring home similar 1qt amber bottles that Eastman Chemical used to sell decahydronapthalene . A reagent used in lab work. 30 years ago and I still miss those bottles.

MattKing · Aug 9, 2022

One and two litre glass "growler" bottles with good caps are good too - the finger grips make them much safer to use in the darkroom.

John Wiegerink · Aug 10, 2022

I think one of the first topics I read about on APUG (old) was about storing mixed developers properly. It was the very first time I had ever heard of using marbles in a glass jug. I remember thinking, "Wow, what a novel idea", but I never used it myself. I thought about it, but it just seemed to be too much trouble for my type use. Which brings me to where and what I use now. I use Mylar (not the new plastic style wine bags), but I also use Boston brown bottles jam-packed full. We're talking Xtol, or clone, here. In fact, I'm going to be mixing up my new 5L pack of Adox XT-3 later today. My last order of Kodak Xtol fell under the possible “no good” batch, and I decided to find an alternative. My method is a little different since I use Xtol-replenished and storage is for two parts. I keep the stock(replenisher) in the Mylar wine bag which is handy for getting 70-80ml out and the user-Xtol in a gallon Boston brown glass jug filled to the top. I have stored Xtol this way for years with no problems whatsoever. We'll see if it works the same with Adox XT-3. My good batch of Xtol-R is still going strong, but since I live at my cottage in northern Michigan during the summer, I decided to keep my Xtol-R at home down south and mix a new batch (XT-3) for the cottage in the north. Reason being, lugging a gallon glass jug back and forth, is an accident just waiting to happen. I'm not suggesting anyone use my method of storage, I'm just stating what works best for me. I guess I'll see if Xtol and Adox XT-3 offer the same results.
Johnw

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 10, 2022

bluechromis said:
Dang. The "green" anti-freeze is not an option?

Seriously?? Can I use that??

Craig · Aug 10, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Seriously?? Can I use that??

I wouldn't, as it's far from pure ethylene glycol. There are all sorts of additives, such as corrosion inhibitors, lubricity enhancers, dyes and a bittering agent. I have no idea how or if those would react with the photo chemicals.

bluechromis · Aug 10, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Reasonably priced Glycol is difficult to source up here. Shipping it up here from the US is ridiculously expensive.

Argentix of Quebec lists 100 ml of glycol for $8 Canadian. There would a significant shipping change as well because it is not a dry chemical. That price doesn't seem wildly different than Formulary's: 100 ml. for $8.94 Canadian ($7 US). This doesn't show that it is inexpensive in Canada. But maybe the situation in U.S. is not so different. If one could find a place that offered free shipping or one could pick up locally, that would help.

In perspective, because Jordan's stock solution is concentrated, it uses only 13 ml of liquid stock "A" to mix up 500 ml of working solution. If one uses 250 ml working solution per roll, it would be half that. The liquid stock solution is not pure glycol because there are the other ingredients. It might more like 10 ml of glycol itself per 500 ml working solution.

https://www.argentix.ca/qs.php?=SID

Sirius Glass · Aug 10, 2022

bluechromis said:
Argentix of Quebec lists 100 ml of glycol for $8 Canadian. There would a significant shipping change as well because it is not a dry chemical. That price doesn't seem wildly different than Formulary's: 100 ml. for $8.94 Canadian ($7 US). This doesn't show that it is inexpensive in Canada. But maybe the situation in U.S. is not so different. If one could find a place that offered free shipping or one could pick up locally, that would help.

In perspective, because Jordan's stock solution is concentrated, it uses only 13 ml of liquid stock "A" to mix up 500 ml of working solution. If one uses 250 ml working solution per roll, it would be half that. The liquid stock solution is not pure glycol because there are the other ingredients. It might more like 10 ml of glycol itself per 500 ml working solution.

https://www.argentix.ca/qs.php?=SID

One could make a quick run across the US Canadian or Canadien US border into Photographers' Formulary in the wilds of outer Montana.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 10, 2022

bluechromis said:
Argentix of Quebec lists 100 ml of glycol for $8 Canadian. There would a significant shipping change as well because it is not a dry chemical. That price doesn't seem wildly different than Formulary's: 100 ml. for $8.94 Canadian ($7 US). This doesn't show that it is inexpensive in Canada. But maybe the situation in U.S. is not so different. If one could find a place that offered free shipping or one could pick up locally, that would help.

In perspective, because Jordan's stock solution is concentrated, it uses only 13 ml of liquid stock "A" to mix up 500 ml of working solution. If one uses 250 ml working solution per roll, it would be half that. The liquid stock solution is not pure glycol because there are the other ingredients. It might more like 10 ml of glycol itself per 500 ml working solution.

https://www.argentix.ca/qs.php?=SID

Sorry, but I don't see glycol at Argentix. I only see glyoxal listed.

GregY · Aug 10, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
One could make a quick run across the US Canadian or Canadien US border into Photographers' Formulary in the wilds of outer Montana.

Sirius, If i'm not mistaken, Andrew is on the coast, some 600+ miles from Condon MT. I live due north (375mi)....it's still two days, two tanks of gas, some food & a motel.... shipping looks pretty cheap by comparison.... even by Fedex 2 day!

bluechromis · Aug 11, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Sorry, but I don't see glycol at Argentix. I only see glyoxal listed.

This puzzling Andrew. I am looking on my browser at the page on Argentix that lists p. glycol. But when I copy the address for that page and open in another tab, it goes to a different place. So I don't know how to share a good link to it. I have attached a screen shot to show you what I am looking at. When I used the search tool on Argentix and put in glycol, the page the glycol came right up. I don't know the in fact that Argentix has both English a French versions of web site has anything to do with it.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 11, 2022

bluechromis said:
This puzzling Andrew. I am looking on my browser at the page on Argentix that lists p. glycol. But when I copy the address for that page and open in another tab, it goes to a different place. So I don't know how to share a good link to it. I have attached a screen shot to show you what I am looking at. When I used the search tool on Argentix and put in glycol, the page the glycol came right up. I don't know the fact that Argentix has both English a French versions of web site has anything to do with it.

Hmmm... I'll have to send Jacques an email. Thanks!

bluechromis · Aug 11, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Reasonably priced Glycol is difficult to source up here. Shipping it up here from the US is ridiculously expensive.

This may be a long shot ... I tried to go on Amazon of Canada. It seemed to have some p. glycol offerings including one with free Prime shipping.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Aug 11, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Reasonably priced Glycol is difficult to source up here. Shipping it up here from the US is ridiculously expensive.

Even Polyethylene Glycol (aka PEG)?

NB23 · Aug 11, 2022

Why not fill the bottles with cooking oil? Just an idea

Nervous about funneling my fresh Xtol into bags... the manipulation part

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