Neofin Blue -- chemical composition?

[Trask]

Having read many of the threads re: 777 and Rodinal, where there's clearly some question as to what chemicals are used in each formula, I thought I'd pass along some information found on Neofin Blue that I bought in Belgium a couple of years ago. Someone -- maybe Tetenal or maybe the importer -- had placed a new product label on the bottles, on which specific chemicals were stipulated as being in the formula. Seems that this info was being revealed because of stated toxicity concerns. The label is multi-lingual French/German.

Anyway, here's what the label said is in Neofin Blue:

2.2 % Natriumsulfit (which Google tells me is sodium sulphite)
0.9% 4-Methylaminophenol H2SO4 (which www.chemindustry.com reveals to be Metol/Elon/etc.)
0.4% 1-Phenyl-3-Pyrozolidinon (which gets no hits when googled)

My copy of the Dignan 150 Formula book suggests that Neofin Blue is some sort of Beutler variant, and the Beutler formula provided does contain Sodium Sulphite and Metol -- though in different relative proportions. Unless 1-Phenyl-3-Pyrozolidinon is Sodium Carbonate, which I doubt, it seems that Neofin has something in it that Beutler does not. I see the magic letters "pyro" but I lack the chemical background to know what 1-Phenyl-3-Pyrozolidinon really is.

A final caveat: I have no idea what the minimum amount of product must be in order that it must be listed on this label, so I suppose that there could be other ingredients that are of such small quantity that they didn't have to be listed.

Anyone have any ideas on what the mystery ingredient is, and whether it's important enough that we can say that Neofin is not Beutler's?

 

[poutnik]

The 3rd substance is more probably misspelled version of 1-Phenyl-3-pyrazolidinon, which in short is Phenidon... And here the search reveals more...

Jiri

 

[Trask]

The 3rd substance is more probably misspelled version of 1-Phenyl-3-pyrazolidinon, which in short is Phenidon... And here the search reveals more...

Jiri

You're right -- my poor eyesight combined with black-on-red printing, so I read "o" instead of "a". Using a magnifier I see that it is pyrazolidinon = phenidone. A quick glance at a variety of phenidone-based formulae shows that it is often paired with hydroquinone, which "reactivates" (per Dignan) the phenidone, but I've not come across a formula that combines phenidone and metol.

Assuming these are the component chemicals of Neofin, it's easy to see the relative amounts of each, in relation to each other; the trickier part is to determine what the overall percentage solution of each would be, i.e., 2.2 grams of sodium sulphite per liter, 22 grams, 220 grams, or 2.2 kilos (I'm kidding).

 

[Gerald Koch]

Neofin Blue:

2.2 % Natriumsulfit (which Google tells me is sodium sulphite)
0.9% 4-Methylaminophenol H2SO4 (which www.chemindustry.com reveals to be Metol/Elon/etc.)
0.4% 1-Phenyl-3-Pyrozolidinon (which gets no hits when googled)

Since this appears to be the stock solution could you tell me what the recommended dilution was?

Beutler did not contain Phenidone although some acutance developers do in combination with Metol. This is a lower concentration of sulfite that the Beutler formula. I wonder if the concentration of the sodium carbonate has also changed.

 

[Ole]

The composition of Neofin Blau seems to have varied a bit over the times. My 20 year old bottles (plastic ampoules, 25ml) stated Phenidone (or rather 1-Phenyl-3-pyrazolidinon), while the ones I bought last year (glass bottles, 30ml) did not.

I suspect that the concentrate is so close to the limit of solubility of Metol that the smaller bottles were only possible by substituting a little Phenidon for some of the Metol.

 

[dancqu]

[QUOTES=Dan Goodspeed]
"Anyway, here's what the label said is in Neofin Blue:

2.2 % Natriumsulfit
0.9% 4-Methylaminophenol H2SO4
0.4% 1-Phenyl-3-Pyrozolidinon

My copy of the Dignan 150 Formula book suggests
that Neofin Blue is some sort of Beutler variant, and
the Beutler formula provided does contain Sodium
Sulphite and Metol --"

Mr. R. W. Anderson, who wrote that article for P. Dignan's
book of Formulas, believed Neofin Blue and Beutler's to
be "essentially the same thing". Perhaps he had the
results in mind.

"A final caveat: I have no idea what the minimum amount
of product must be in order that it must be listed on this
label, so I suppose that there could be other ingredients
that are of such small quantity that they didn't
have to be listed."

It is my understanding that phenidone was, many years
ago, a hazmat chemical. Patrick Dignan at his own expense
and after thorough testing had it's hazmat status lifted.
So it is not listed.

" ...we can say that Neofin is not Beutler's?"

Although the results may be Very nearly the same as
those of Beutler's I'd put Neofin Blue in a class by itself
or with very few others. It is not carbonated and does
have both phenidone and metol as agents.

That formula is a real odd-ball. On a liter basis; 22, 9,
and 4 grams, sulfite, metol, phenidone. Something of a
low sulfite metol-ated pota. Try it on Tech Pan. Dan

 

[Trask]

In response to Gerald's question, Neofin Blue comes from Tetenal in small bottles, around 35 ml volume (all my present bottles are full, so I can't measure exactly). The Neofin instructions are to put the contents of that small bottle into your measuring flask and then fill to 500 ml. That's the standard dilution. If you were to dilute to 700 ml, then you'd multiply the standard developing time by 1.3, 600 ml multiply by 1.2, only 400 ml (i.e., more concentrated than standard) multiply by 0.8, 300 ml multiply by 0.6.

Dan

 

[Gerald Koch]

In response to Gerald's question, Neofin Blue comes from Tetenal in small bottles, around 35 ml volume (all my present bottles are full, so I can't measure exactly).

Thanks, I had heard that they had switched to bottles rather than vials but didn't know the size.

 

[Ole]

Thanks, I had heard that they had switched to bottles rather than vials but didn't know the size.

As I said: 30ml.

And there is no indication that the new 30ml packages contain Phenidone - as I said. Whereas the (smaller) vials contained Phenidone. As I also said.

As I said, it may be a case of the solubility limit of Metol being reached in the 25ml vials, necessitating a substitution of some of the Metol by Phenidone to ensure it all stays in solution and keeps the customers happy.