Negatives screwed up in a way I've never seen

newtonrings · Apr 27, 2022

Hi,

I recently acquired a Kindermann stainless steel developing tank, for one 135 reel, with a 10 oz (~295 ml) volume. I tried it out today, developing a roll of Fomapan 100 that I've spooled myself from a 30.5 meter bulk-roll.
I always develop Fomapan 100 in Rodinal 1:50 and never had problems. The other negatives I've developed from this bulk-roll has been totally fine.

Info about this development:

Just under 6 mL of Rodinal
Close to 290 mL of water
9 mins
20 degrees celsius

Stuff that was a first time for me:
Getting 135 film onto a metal reel - had no issue as far as I can tell. If this problem is due to film sticking together it obviously was an issue
Using the new tank, pouring, agitating, etc (I regularly use about 3-4 different tanks with plastic reels, and I've developed I guess about 100 rolls of 135 and 120 in both color and bw with a myriad of developers)

I saw the marks on the negatives when I took the negs down after drying, and I thought that the culprit may be either air bobbles, sticking together or mold. After scanning and seeing the weird spots I'm just totally unsure of what this is. Appreciate any help!

I can't feel anything on either sides of the negatives, and with the naked eye it just looks like spots of lower density/transparent.

gone · Apr 27, 2022

I'd try and rewash them, maybe stick 'em in a measuring cup and swish them around in distilled water. It appear to be stuff that was floating around in your tank. I shoot that film in 35mm at EI 50, and develop at 1:40 or 1:50 in Rodinal. Looks good, great combination.

Sirius Glass · Apr 27, 2022

Under the thread of starting a flame war, prewetting and thumping the tank one or two times just after adding each chemical could help avoid this problem since it also includes knocking loose air bubbles.

snusmumriken · Apr 27, 2022

How fascinating! Looks like miniature tapioca (or frog-spawn as we called it in my youth), but I guess that's because the tones are reversed. In reality they must be clusters of circles with light centres and opaque edges, like tiny bubbles of something. It's hard to imagine that any effect caused by air bubbles would be so uniform in size. Could it be gelatine? Nothing in your procedure suggests any emulsion-damaging step, but obvious questions are how long did you wash it for, and did you use a stop-bath?

As for remedies... If the spots are transparent on the negatives it doesn't sounds as though they would be recoverable. But was it a second-hand tank? Because if so, I'd be inclined to give tank and reel it a really good clean and hope you never see this again.

jnamia · Apr 27, 2022

newtonrings said:
Hi,

I recently acquired a Kindermann stainless steel developing tank, for one 135 reel, with a 10 oz (~295 ml) volume. I tried it out today, developing a roll of Fomapan 100 that I've spooled myself from a 30.5 meter bulk-roll.
I always develop Fomapan 100 in Rodinal 1:50 and never had problems. The other negatives I've developed from this bulk-roll has been totally fine.

Info about this development:

Just under 6 mL of Rodinal

Close to 290 mL of water

9 mins

20 degrees celsius

Stuff that was a first time for me:

Getting 135 film onto a metal reel - had no issue as far as I can tell. If this problem is due to film sticking together it obviously was an issue

Using the new tank, pouring, agitating, etc (I regularly use about 3-4 different tanks with plastic reels, and I've developed I guess about 100 rolls of 135 and 120 in both color and bw with a myriad of developers)

I saw the marks on the negatives when I took the negs down after drying, and I thought that the culprit may be either air bobbles, sticking together or mold. After scanning and seeing the weird spots I'm just totally unsure of what this is. Appreciate any help!

I can't feel anything on either sides of the negatives, and with the naked eye it just looks like spots of lower density/transparent.

bummer.
it looks like your film was contaminated by something in the tank .. fixer? .. might be able to be fixed if you know how to retouch or spot the film or paper. if you don't already do this, best thing is after you are done processing your film, rinse the tank and reels really well with hot water.

newtonrings · Apr 27, 2022

It was a second hand tank, and I probably didn't clean it thoroughly enough prior to loading the film. I presoaked as I usually do with 20 degree water for about 5 min. Recently I've been using water as stop bath and did so this time as well. Must have been some stuff or chemical residue left in the tank. The spots are seemingly in the emulsion, I can't affect them in any way even with my nails on either side of the film.

Edit: The spot-patterns are just really weird. Look like beehive hexagons.

Sirius Glass · Apr 27, 2022

Using stop bath instead of water would eliminate one possibility.

koraks · Apr 28, 2022

I put my money on contamination of the tank or reel, resulting in foaming. I'd suggest thoroughly cleaning the equipment and trying again.

newtonrings · Apr 28, 2022

A contaminated tank seems the most likely, so a meticulous cleaning is underway .

Sirius Glass said:
Using stop bath instead of water would eliminate one possibility.

Thanks for the advice, but even though using a stop bath is considered good practice, I'm certain that using water instead didn't cause the problem I had this time.

shutterfinger · Apr 28, 2022

I use water as a stop but I fill, agitate, dump 3 times before moving on to the fixer. I do not use single reel 35mm tanks. I put the film loaded reel on the bottom of a 2 reel tank with an empty reel on top and do not leave an air space at the top. I filter and reuse the fixer also.

koraks · Apr 28, 2022

I don't see how this problem would in any way be associated with the stop bath or a lack thereof. Since the problem areas are characterized by a lack of density, it's almost certain the problem is confined to something that happens up to and including the development step.

snusmumriken · Apr 28, 2022

koraks said:
I don't see how this problem would in any way be associated with the stop bath or a lack thereof. Since the problem areas are characterized by a lack of density, it's almost certain the problem is confined to something that happens up to and including the development step.

Probably no connection in this case because the developer was so dilute; but if a developer is strongly alkaline you can get quite a violent foaming reaction with the stop-bath, which allegedly can cause emulsion damage.

I don't think the second part of your post is necessarily true, but admit that I can't think of an explanation either pre- or post-.

reddesert · Apr 28, 2022

Zooming in on the original shot shows that the damaged areas have extremely regular patterns of little circles with a nearly constant spacing, very honeycomb-like, but not a perfectly regular grid.

It's hard for me to imagine how that pattern would arise chemically. I think it has to be some kind of contact issue. However, it doesn't look like what happens when layers of film stick together or overlap on the developing reel, that's usually just a big blotch.

Is it on many different frames? Was this the most recent film from the bulk roll? I wonder about either physical emulsion damage, or some kind of mold growth inside the bulk roll.

foc · Apr 29, 2022

Could the marks be from contact with something while drying (while the negatives were still wet/damp)?

Did you try rewashing the negatives?

newtonrings · Apr 29, 2022

It was indeed the latest loaded film from the bulk roll. I haven't rewashed, but I can try. They were dried the same way I always dry my film, and again It's impossible to see anything _on_ either side of the film, at any angle, and scraping with my nails had no effect. Drying marks IME are usually visible on the film.

I can try rewashing just to rule it out, then I'm gonna develop more of the same film, the same way in the same tank now that it's been washed.

BTW, is it possible that it's actually an issue with the emulsion from production?

Don_ih · Apr 29, 2022

newtonrings said:
is it possible that it's actually an issue with the emulsion from production?

It's not inconceivable that there were bubbles in the emulsion. I think it's unlikely they'd be quite like that. You could send the scan to Foma and as if it's possibly their fault.

If you didn't clean the tank out well and the last thing in it was photoflo, that could make your developer foamy.

But it looks a lot like mouldy film I developed. There seem to be too many spots for foamy developer.

koraks · Apr 29, 2022

newtonrings said:
BTW, is it possible that it's actually an issue with the emulsion from production?

Yes, that's possible. You could try contacting Foma about it; they may ask you to send the example negatives to them for examination.
However, it would be the first example of this kind of defect popping up in contemporary retail film AFAIK. Foma as you might be aware is indeed plagued by manufacturing defects, but not this kind of defect in this type of film, so it doesn't fit the pattern of Foma defects you might find via Google etc.

NB23 · Apr 29, 2022

Looks like splotches of Fixer before development.

NB23 · Apr 29, 2022

Fingers with fixer on them will do this, while rolling the film.

Saganich · Apr 29, 2022

Looks like a manufacturing issue. The regularity of dot pattern seems unlikely to be the result of film contact, foam, fix, stop, drying, or any other part of the normal process...even dirty fingers.

NB23 · Apr 29, 2022

Saganich said:
Looks like a manufacturing issue. The regularity of dot pattern seems unlikely to be the result of film contact, foam, fix, stop, drying, or any other part of the normal process...even dirty fingers.

Regularity? The pattern I see would qualify for a classic example of irregularity. Still, could very well be manufacturing defect, why not.

Anyhow, the last time I saw something similar was fixer on fingers. On film and paper.

Even a tong, from fixer to developer, will do this.

Doremus Scudder · Apr 29, 2022

I got something similar on sheet film handled with contaminated fingers once (my gloves had a pinhole in them and I unwittingly transferred fixer to the film before development).

Or possibly some other contamination before development.

reddesert · Apr 29, 2022

NB23 said:
Regularity? The pattern I see would qualify for a classic example of irregularity. Still, could very well be manufacturing defect, why not.

Click the original image to zoom in and see the fairly regular pattern of small dots that make up the (irregular) pattern of larger blotches. It's the small dots that are puzzling some of us, as if the film had been textured or halftoned by physical contact. Or maybe some type of fungus/mold growth?

NB23 · Apr 29, 2022

reddesert said:
Click the original image to zoom in and see the fairly regular pattern of small dots that make up the (irregular) pattern of larger blotches. It's the small dots that are puzzling some of us, as if the film had been textured or halftoned by physical contact. Or maybe some type of fungus/mold growth?

I see. But that can easily be explained by a finger touching it a few times by simple manipulation.

koraks · Apr 29, 2022

YMMV. I don't see how fingers would leave tiny perfect circles this way. They do look exactly like the bubbles I've seen many times when making carbon transfer tissue. Regularly sized and bunched together in small clusters.

Negatives screwed up in a way I've never seen

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