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Negative Shadows

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AnselAdamsX

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How thin can a negative be and still be printable via traditional processes?
I haven't had a chance to do a traditional print yet. I've only scanned.
When I develop a negative the shadows can look clear to the naked eye or very light .
The scanner picks up detail in these clear areas although it's not great, I see scanning artifacts.
Is this too thin for a traditional print or just a limitation of scanning?

Thanks
Chris
 

keithwms

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You can print a very thin or thick negative.... but it isn't easy to get an appealing result. At least you won't get scanning artifacts! The problem with very thin or very thick negs is that the tones will be clumped and you'll have a hard time separating them. The reason is that those tones are all compressed onto the knee or toe of the tone (exposure vs. density) curve. Nothing's on the linear portion where there is greatest separation.

Note that some negs can be meaningfully intensified. You seldom gain much, but if it's a very important image then it may be worth a try. Nowadays a lot of people don't bother.

To try printing a thin neg I recommend working with multigrade paper and look up the 'split grade' technique. You will need to do something to separate whatever midtones you have, without blowing your highlights or shadows, and that will probably require some careful split tone printing.

Another suggestion is to go ahead and make a dark (overexposed) print and bleach it. You might get some contrast where you want it. There are ways to control that with the bleach formula.

Another thing you might do first is make a duplicate neg with the largest slope of density vs. exposure that you can, i.e., first separate the tones as best you can on film. I suggest this because you can play more tone tricks with film than you can with paper. Some members here can impart lots of information when it comes to manipulating the tone curve of film with this or that developer.

If you decide to go the digital route, my suggestion is to autolevel and print the negative image onto glossy paper, which you can then treat as a paper negative for a traditional print. You can retouch the paper neg here and there on the back with a pencil. Interesting things can result.

P.s. the reason for the scan artifacts is that Dmin is not really zero for your scanner. A lot of people assume it is, but it isn't... especially if you're not using a drum scanner. The only way to fight artifacts is to multiscan like nuts.
 
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ic-racer

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There is no fixed minimum usable density. Jones et al showed that the minimum usable shadow density was at a point tangent to a slope three-tenths that of the average slope.
 

piu58

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If you print very thin negatives you usually end with hard (or extra hard) paper. You need this to spearate the low values at least a bit. This yields to harsh, contrasty middle ... light tones which are a matter of taste.
 

Newt_on_Swings

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keithwms is exactly correct. I would recommend split grade printing. I dont encounter this too much as I prefer to work with a slightly thicker negative for printing, so I always plan on either a bit more exposure, or a bit more dev time or agitation.

You wont know until you start trying to print these, but I usually can print thin negatives on an enlarger with better results than a default scan. For thin negs. the scanner wins out if a lot of adjustment will be done in post, like sharpening and contrast levels.

Also a good tip is to check they are clean and free of dust/dirt, can be quite frustrating to any print, but especially on a thin one, with many black areas involved.
 

marco.taje

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My personal experience has been quite the opposite from Newt_on_Swings'. In general, to me thin negatives seem to scan better than they print. I think that having the image on paper, which involves reflectivity rather than luminosity on a screen, makes that tone clumping more apparent.
So my humble suggestion is: unless you want to use some of the valid techniques above, for easier printing I recommend that you give more exposure to your negs in the future. It makes the printing really easier.

my two p's.
 

keithwms

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Well, it all comes down to "if a lot of adjustment will be done in post..." to use Newt's words. If a lot of tone manipulation is required then (and I hope the gods don't smite me) digital is indeed easier. However, I'll just point out that your soul is not lost to the dark forces if you decide to make a digital interneg... you can still get a beautiful traditional print. We don't discuss these options here on APUG, you can perhaps find more guidance on dpug. I'll just say that route it is very easy. Read my post above and you will see that is so.
 
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AnselAdamsX

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Thanks, I will try giving more exposure in the future so only the very darkest areas are clear to the naked eye.

Chris
 
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