Need information about darkroom plumbing/drains

[Valerie]

I teach in a college darkroom. Several years ago we remodeled/enlarged the darkroom and some genius put in copper drain pipes. After less than 2 years of use, the pipes corroded and had to be replaced. Now the film processing sinks are following suite. The Dean wants to meet with me next week to talk about what we need to use to replace the copper pipe. But I"m not a plumber!! Or a chemist. So my question is: Does anyone have information/sources I can reference during this meeting that pertains to appropriate plumbing? I already found one article stating that PVC and CPVC pipes are suitable for chemistry labs (which I already assumed as I've had them in my own darkroom for almost 20 yrs with no issue). And I know glass pipe is an option, but perhaps is overkill for us.

 

[Kino]

For what it's worth, Delta uses ABS for all their sinks drain traps and attachments.
https://deltaphotosupplies.com/store/p96/Installation_Pac_I.html

PVC should be perfectly fine.

POLYVINYL CHLORIDE (PVC) CHEMICAL RESISTANCE DATA
https://www.ipexna.com/media/11234/chemical-guide-us-ipex-pvc.pdf

 

[gordrob]

I have used ABS pipes in my darkroom for the last 35 years and have not had any problems. Easy to install. All the waste pipes in our house are ABS as well.

 

[Old_Dick]

You might want to check local plumbing codes. ABS is illegal to use in some states or city. ABS is illegal in NH.

ABS pipes resemble PVC pipes but they come in black color. As per the plumbers in Fort Worth, TX, ABS pipes are basically the older version of PVC pipes and are no more recommended by plumbing codes. Just like PVC pipes, ABS pipes are also used for vent and drain pipes. If you still have ABS pipes installed in your house then the best advice is to replace them with PVC pipes.

 

[mshchem]

Waste pipe is almost all CPVC in new construction. It's great stuff. Commercial buildings still use cast iron, mainly for sound, much less rushing sounds. My home was built in 2001, nice copper water lines, plastic sewer. Works perfect.

 

[awty]

Ask a local plumber.
Glass lined pipes were used for highly corrosive chemicals, they were replaced by HDPE.
PVC is usual for domestic and adequate for a darkroom. For commercial application it is usually HDPE.
No idea what the laws are where you are, here it is illegal to do any plumbing work unless your a licensed plumber. There are lots of laws associated with plumbing that change constantly.

 

[Luis-F-S]

PEC for the water lines. PVC for the drain.

 

[AgX]

First let me congratulat to having a Dean intereted in renovating a darkroom and not giving it up instead.


I never heard of copper drain pipes, but brass drain syphons are common here...

Amongst the materials used in buildins for draining:. All sorts of hard-PVC, ABS and ceramic tubings are apt for darkroom dainage. I would refrain from cement tubes, if employed all.


At my county the question dos not even arise, as all spent baths are considerd waste and as such may not being drained at all.

 

[awty]

First let me congratulat to having a Dean intereted in renovating a darkroom and not giving it up instead.


I never heard of copper drain pipes, but brass drain syphons are common here...

Amongst the materials used in buildins for draining:. All sorts of hard-PVC, ABS and ceramic tubings are apt for darkroom dainage. I would refrain from cement tubes, if employed all.


At my county the question dos not even arise, as all spent baths are considerd waste and as such may not being drained at all.

Copper was used extensively in commercial above ground waste lines last century and up until PVC was available for domestic. Ceramic or glass lined pipes was used in laboratories where necessary.

Are you saying in your last paragraph that waste water is transported away for processing instead of going through the sewer system?

Geberet has been the main supplier of HDPE pipe for waste lines and Rehau for PEX water pipes here.
We also get Grohe and Hansa, but you can keep your Villeroy and Boch.....I hate them.

 

[AgX]

No, instead I have to carry my spent baths in canisters once a year to a collection.

 

[Mr Bill]

So my question is: Does anyone have information/sources I can reference during this meeting that pertains to appropriate plumbing?

IS&T's Handbook of Photographic Science and Engineering (1997), section 14, Materials of Construction - Silver Halide Processing.

This has been a long-time bible in the field. The first edition, around 1973 as I recall, had substantially the same thing, edited by Hendrickson of CPAC. The later edition presumably adds something, I'm not sure what.

Either ABS or PVC ought to be ok for all the standard photo processes.

 

[mshchem]

I second what Mr Bill has advised. I have a Kodak book c.1980, covers every conceivable material used in photographic equipment. A plumbing contractor will know what to use. You certainly don't need glass plumbing. I worked in a chemistry lab that had beautiful Pyrex glass plumbing, we were handling concentrated strong acids. Plastic waste and vent material is fine plumbing contractor will know and it's quick and inexpensive to install .

http://www.genovaproducts.com/

These guys have all the materials and technical support.

 

[awty]

No, instead I have to carry my spent baths in canisters once a year to a collection.

I will probably do similar with my new darkroom and use the wash water for the garden. Did run a 100mm branch line from my house drain to the new darkroom as well. In reality a small hobbyist dark room wouldn't cause any environmental impact, but is probably best incase an environmental inspector comes knocking.. A bigger concern would be cross contamination with the water supple, were exposed to have industrial check valves to prevent any chemistry from siphoning back into the water line. I the future I will install some rainwater tanks to negate that.

 

[awty]

I teach in a college darkroom. Several years ago we remodeled/enlarged the darkroom and some genius put in copper drain pipes. After less than 2 years of use, the pipes corroded and had to be replaced. Now the film processing sinks are following suite. The Dean wants to meet with me next week to talk about what we need to use to replace the copper pipe. But I"m not a plumber!! Or a chemist. So my question is: Does anyone have information/sources I can reference during this meeting that pertains to appropriate plumbing? I already found one article stating that PVC and CPVC pipes are suitable for chemistry labs (which I already assumed as I've had them in my own darkroom for almost 20 yrs with no issue). And I know glass pipe is an option, but perhaps is overkill for us.

Is there any reason why you wouldn't ask a plumber to take a look and advise and give a quote? If you were local I would be happy to come and give expert advice, I do it all the time then give you a obligation free quote. Wonder why it's different there. Surely the faculty has a regular plumber they use....hopefully not one that uses copper waste pipes.

 

[AgX]

Would a plumber know better than us what chemicals from a darkroom sink may go down the drain?

Would he even know what a darkroom is?

 

[Nodda Duma]

Might be worthwhile talking in more general terms than specific use for darkroom. Check to see if copper drain pipes are even up to local code and make the argument the plumber should have used standard PVC drain during the original renovation. I can’t imagine why copper would have bern used… it has been more expensive than PVC for a long time.

 

[Valerie]

Thank you for all the replies and links to resources. It reinforces what I suspected all along.
I suspect the copper was used because the contractor gets a percentage of the overall costs. Higher construction bid=bigger paycheck. There are several useless items that were added during the reno. That, or someone just didn't research the proposed project properly.
I, too, am wondering why the Dean is asking me and not a professional! Unless he is under the mistaken assumption that because I work in a darkroom I am an expert in all areas of its functions. (Big mistake!) However, I am grateful to be consulted and want to bring something useful to this meeting (which will include speaking to a professional plumber!)

Thanks again!

 

[Mr Bill]

I, too, am wondering why the Dean is asking me and not a professional! Unless he is under the mistaken assumption that because I work in a darkroom I am an expert in all areas of its functions.

Probably because he doesn't know who else to ask. And he doesn't want a repeat of last time. Which he presumably bears some responsibility for. Certainly someone at the college does.

If your college has any chemistry labs then the person in charge of those might be a good person to bring into the meeting.

If you want to wade into this is a bit deeper (someone should) you might want to talk to your chemistry supplier. Not that they will specifically be familiar with all the details, but they probably know the sort of issues that some other customers have had. And they can probably find out which professionals those customers talked with. On the other hand you might be better off to not rock the boat too much, so to speak.

 

[MattKing]

If you want to wade into this is a bit deeper (someone should) you might want to talk to your chemistry supplier.

+1
Particularly if they concentrate on the educational market.
I understand why Valerie has been brought into the question. She knows about what it is that is likely to be going through those pipes, even if she doesn't know all the technical chemical parts.
It would be useful to find out if any of the faculty or support staff in the chemistry department have any darkroom knowledge. A lab tech who does darkroom work for fun would be perfect.

 

[mshchem]

I teach in a college darkroom. Several years ago we remodeled/enlarged the darkroom and some genius put in copper drain pipes. After less than 2 years of use, the pipes corroded and had to be replaced. Now the film processing sinks are following suite. The Dean wants to meet with me next week to talk about what we need to use to replace the copper pipe. But I"m not a plumber!! Or a chemist. So my question is: Does anyone have information/sources I can reference during this meeting that pertains to appropriate plumbing? I already found one article stating that PVC and CPVC pipes are suitable for chemistry labs (which I already assumed as I've had them in my own darkroom for almost 20 yrs with no issue). And I know glass pipe is an option, but perhaps is overkill for us.

If the leak is occurring directly under the sink, the problem may be a simple P-trap. The stuff that's sold today that's chrome plated metal is terrible. The P-trap always holds the last liquid poured in.
So if someone dumped regular fixer and didn't flush the stuff down, that could seriously corrode the trap.

 

[awty]

Might be worthwhile talking in more general terms than specific use for darkroom. Check to see if copper drain pipes are even up to local code and make the argument the plumber should have used standard PVC drain during the original renovation. I can’t imagine why copper would have bern used… it has been more expensive than PVC for a long time.

In Australia up until the end of last century copper wastes in commercial and industrial settings were the norm, specified in the plumbing code. Labs would be designed by an engineer and pipe type was specified, something like stainless steel, glass etc. depending on the application. We still use copper wastes, mainly chrome plated for aesthetics and some people like the durability of copper. Urinals used to be done in brass for the first 2mtrs, industrial dishwashers also used to destroy copper and had to be run in brass. This century we switched to thermal plastics, mostly black HDPE pipe (High Density Polyethylene)
for commercial application. PVC is not as durable and only used for cost cutting. PVC is fine for domestic application or somewhere where it wont get knocked around.
Plumbing has strict codes which the plumber has to abide to, he might not be able to use PVC.
Usually mistakes are made by poor communication, so its great that the Dean has included Valerie in the consultation and hopefully they will get it right this time.

 

[AgX]

Brass traps are a source of trouble already in household use.

The P-trap always holds the last liquid poured in.

Good point! Concerning those who do not flush a sink in a darkroom . (In household application the matter seems more complicated.)

 

[Fujicaman1957]

PVC should be just fine for drain lines as long as you don't dump water hotter than about 110F down them. Why your plumber used copper, is beyond me. For water lines, PEX or CVPC is fine. PEX is some what easier to work with in tight spaces.

 

[beemermark]

CPVC for hot water, PVC for water under 110 F. Note even hot water from the faucet is 110 or less down the drain. CPVC/ PVC is cheap. Who ever the plumber was that sold you copper lines was a horse thief. But then it was only tax payer's money I guess.

IMHO PEX Sucks, PEX is used because for the plumber it's cheap, easy and fast to install. However PEX is hot / cold water to the faucet (pressurized). PEX is good for about 20~25 years and then it starts to fail. I live in a sub-division 20-25 years old with PEX plumbing and it fails at the crimped fittings. Plus if your a do-it-yourself type person PEX requires special (pricey) tools to repair or tap into.

 

[gone]

Copper plumbing is actually the Gold Standard in most plumbing applications, both commercial and residential, but few people do it anymore due to the expense. Once it's installed properly and the joints are sweated tight, you have a very low maintenance plumbing system. The suggestion to call a plumber (and you should have estimates from 2 or 3, not just one) is a good one. They're the pros. Cast iron, copper, PVC, many sorts of plumbing materials should be just fine for darkroom plumbing, but you want to go w/ what is code approved for the particular job in your city or county, and a teaching facility surely has it's own codes to be dealt with.