Need help with film developing

[fastw]

Hi Guys.
Still getting these. Don't know what's going on. Tried more developer (volume), more tapping on tank, presoaking for two min, standing developing and this is the last film. BTW, it's Tri-x in Ro9.
Cheers, Wojtek.

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

That's 120 film, isn't it? The only time I had those problems with 120 film was years ago when I was trying to develop it in Paterson plastic tanks. I got those marks along the edges and NOTHING helped. Switched to metal reels and tanks and have never had them again. What you're seeing is the result of air bubbles on the film. The plastic reels seem to retain them on the edges so strongly that you just can't knock them loose. You don't notice it with 35mm film because the image is not very close to the film edge, due to the sprocket holes.

 

[bvy]

What kind of tank are you using, and how much, exactly, is more developer volume?

 

[frank]

I develop 120 (and 135) on plastic reels in Patterson tanks exclusively and have never seen this.

This is not to say that Chris is incorrect.

 

[snay1345]

looks like air bubbles to me. I usually pound the tank on the counter a couple of times before I let it sit.

 

[Kawaiithulhu]

What's your agitation like? If you're shaking it like maracas at a quinceañera you'll get bubbles no matter what else you try.

That's what cured my case of bubbles, smooth jazz inversions instead of mariachi.

 

[pbromaghin]

You say you're "tapping on tank". Taking you literally, that isn't enough. As snay1345 writes, you should give the tank a few good bumps on the counter. I put a folded up towel on the counter to protect the tank and make sure it is hitting as perfectly flat as I can.

 

[MattKing]

Scrub the grooves on your reels with a toothbrush. If there is any buildup there, it will encourage bubbles.

I just had this happen to me - first time (AFAIK) in 40+ years of developing.

 

[fastw]

Thanks for quick responses Guys. I do use Paterson tank, use a bit over 600 ml of dev, and not just tap, but do bump strongly on counter. So two things I may try, cleaning the spools and then getting new metal tank and spools if that doesn't work. Oh, and gentler agitation.
Cheers, Wojtek.

 

[Bill Burk]

Gentler wouldn't solve it. But new steel tanks might. I have one or two rolls of developed film with that characteristic marking, and I think I had a Paterson at the time. I solved it by being very aggressive rapping the first several agitations (3-4 inversions and 3-4 hard raps... every 30 seconds) so hard I thought the Paterson tank would break (it never did). But eventually I retired that tank and switched to steel. That might be why I don't see those any more. But I also would put more solution in the tank.

 

[Ian Grant]

Sometimes the water used is so hard tapping, or any other form of agitation, is not enough to get rid of air bubble. A very small amount of wetting agent cures it effectively. I use a couple of drops, too much takes it the other way and you get foaming.

In a couple of previous posts on this subject I added some photos, I tested various methods of trying to eliminate air bublles a few years ago in Turkey where my local water has a high salt content. I did visual inspections of the film in the tank and the air bubbles were stubborn many remaining after vigorous tapping, inversion etc, The only agitation that worked reasonably well was the stick thing Paterson tanks use for rotating the spiral in the tank that removed the most air bubbles. The drops of wetting agent meant they went immediately.

It's worth noting film emulsions often contain surfactants (Wetting agents) as an adjunct to help in the coating process, some have a bit more than others while we are only talking very small quantities it does make some films slightly less prone to air bells than others.

Ian

 

[fastw]

A couple of drops? I'll try that. Thanks Ian.

 

[polyglot]

Yes, two drops of wetting agent will probably fix this, allowing the bubbles to flow past the spiral. Any more than a drop or two and you risk getting foam in the tank, which could be worse.

 

[Regular Rod]

Two minutes pre-soak is not enough. Use five minutes, agitate by smooth inversions five times every half minute making a swirl on each inversion. Pour out the soak water after the five minutes and pour in another 500 ml of water. Agitate for ten smooth inversions pour out the water, draining it as best you can then pour in your developer and process in your preferred way.

I only use Paterson tanks for 120 and 35mm and had this problem just once. I changed to the routine above and the problem went away.

RR

 

[Ian Grant]

I tested what was the minimum wetting agent that would clear the air bells, which was 2-3 drops and that didn't cause any foaming at all, really it's a trace needed.

If I shook my tap water in Turkey and poured it in a glass the air bubbles stuck to the sides, 2 drops of wetting agent and no air bubbles.

Try the same with a Paterson tank with just it's spiral (no film) with water and see what happens with & without the wetting agent. when I did this it was quite an eye-opener. It was quite different in Turkey where out tap water isn't drinkable compared to my water in the UK.

Ian

 

[Xmas]

Use the minimum volume of liquid for the film in tank if you use inversion agitation ~ normally the volume is on the tank bottom.
You need to use the clip to stop the reel moving as well.
If you bang a tank you risk splitting it.
Banging is unnecessary with inversion and minimum volume. The bubbles animate in the strong flow.

 

[mwdake]

I do use Paterson tank, use a bit over 600 ml of dev

Is that for 1 120 film or 2 35mm films?

If for 1 120 roll you may be using too much solution and not leaving enough space for movement of the solution.

 

[pentaxuser]

If you bang a tank you risk splitting it.
Banging is unnecessary with inversion and minimum volume. The bubbles animate in the strong flow.

I can understand that banging as in real hard and unnecessarily hard contact with a hard worktop can result in a split but are you saying that no kind of tap on the bottom of the tank is necessary and that the flow of the developer, provided you use only the amount recommended by the tank makers is enough to dislodge any bubbles?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[bvy]

Lots of good advice here -- lots of contradictory advice too. If I were the OP, I'd be hopelessly confused.

My thoughts are distilled water to make your developer and clean clean clean everything (reels, tanks, etc.). Change one variable at a time. If necessary do a "dry run" with scrap film but real (even if used) developer. Go through the motions and open up the tank periodically to see what's going on. Adjust your process accordingly.

One thing about knocking your Paterson tank -- if you're agitating by inversion (which is recommended), you need to allow a few seconds for the developer to drain back into the tank before knocking. There's a funnel in there, remember, so invert-knock has no effect. Try invert-pause-knock.

And if you're wrapping the tank against the work surface with such force that breaking it is a possibility, then you're probably only exacerbating the problem that you're trying to alleviate.

 

[fastw]

I will try adding some wetting agent next, it makes most sense. Just need to finish the next roll first. Will let you Guys know.
Cheers, Wojtek.

 

[fastw]

Tried the wetting agent, seems to work. Thanks

 

[scheimfluger_77]

If I may ask, what are you using for a wetting agent? Is it Photoflo? I use Paterson tanks and never had an air bell problem, regardless of inversion or twirl agitation; and tap water only.

 

[fastw]

Yep, Photo Flo 200. Two drops for one 120 film.

 

[Xmas]

If I may ask, what are you using for a wetting agent? Is it Photoflo? I use Paterson tanks and never had an air bell problem, regardless of inversion or twirl agitation; and tap water only.

I live between two chalk rivers, really hard water kettles and heaters go bang regular.
Dont fix things that are not broken...
If you use minimum liquid i.e. 500mls for 120 development with inversion you should not get bubbles.
It you 'twirl' with stirring rod you should not get bubbles

If you use the Ilfords three water changes you should use 400 mls rather than 500, 600 mls would be too much You need to encourage flow of water over emulsion invert wait until tank flow stops turn upright again wait until tank flow stops, increase count by one. If you are cautious use four changes of 400 mls - I use five tempered after fix i.e.

one to protect HCA count 20
HCA count 20
three for effect count 15, 20, 25

YMMV

less is more