Need help with c41 and Tetenal Kit

[Irji]

Hello all!

I don’t understand what is going on with my development. I read the forum but haven’t found answer for my questions. The problem is streaking, stain and uneven color. It looks like yellow, brown and magenta stains and streaks on positive.
I use Tetenal kit with Blix. I have been having this problem for more than a year. For one period I used to develop at 86F / 30C, but color crossover was so heavy and unpleasant, and all my negatives suffered from lack of color variability, so I went back to 100F / 38.5C development. And I should mention that development at low temperature didn’t cure negatives from streaking, but made it less visible.
On positive streaks look like magenta stains with yellow border. Sometimes just yellow stains. They are darker than whole image. Also I can see very faint streaks on base mask. These streaks on the negative look yellowish and greenish and they are on the base too, not only on images.

My process in details:
I use Tetenal kit splitted on 500ml batches. One batch for 4 development cycles / 2 films per cycle in fully filled 1520 tank.

I do presoak twice at 100F / 38.5C for 30-45 seconds. I use 1520 tank on jobo cpe2 without lift. I pour in 500 ml of developer as fast as I can through the preheated funnel. 500 ml fully covers the reels, so I don’t think I have uneven wetting of film with developer. I invert tank 4 or 5 times fast as Kodak suggest for BW development and very fast put the tank on the running machine.
I have replaced motor on my Jobo unit and now speed #2 is equal to 80-83rpm. Tank is perfectly leveled.
At 3’05” I take the tank and pour the developer out and pour in the stop bath through the funnel. I invert by hand approximately for 1 minute (Or sometimes put the tank on the machine for 1 minute – result is the same). I use 2% acetic acid stop bath.
After stop bath I take the tank to the bathroom and wash film for 3’ with jobo bubble washer at 100F / 38.5 C
So, next the Blix for 10-12 minutes (I do it longer than Tetenal recommends – 6 minutes). Wash and Stab.

I did some tests:
1) I added 5 g/l Sodium Metabisulfite to Stop Bath and wash before Blix– no difference.
2) I omitted Stop Bath between Developer and Blix – I got the worst result with yellow and magenta streaks everywhere and dense film base.
3) I omitted wash between Stop and Blix – I got better result with just few magenta streaks on 2 frames.
4) I developed with presoak and without presoak – no difference.

I think my problem have nothing with uneven development or uneven wetting with developer. I suppose something is wrong with stop bath, wash or blix.
Longer wash after stop bath – more defects and denser film base. Shorter wash – less defects but there are some.
I tried Buffered stop bath (1 mole of Sodium Acetate + Acetic Acid to pH of 4 in 1 liter of water + 20 g Sodium Bisulfite) without wash – straight to the Blix. It becomes better but still there are few very light marks and streaks and Fix in my Blix quickly started to decompose.
pH of my wash water is 7 to 7.5 depending on season
pH of fresh Tetenal Blix – from 6.7 to 7.2 (from kit to kit)
pH of my stop bath ~ 2.7-3

Is it possible, that these defects are caused by developer carryover or something else?

PS. Sorry for my English =)

 

[kylewilcox]

I follow the directions exactly (but in a steel tank) and get perfect results. No stop bath and I stick to the single pre-soak. I seem to remember doing multiple pre-soak water changes over a couple minutes like you are doing and having strange coloration, so you might check out doing the recommended 1 minute.
In general though, you are changing the individual parameters and trying to see where your problem is occurring (very scientific, and an admirable effort), but why not use the exact prescribed method from the directions as your baseline for the kit's performance?

 

[Irji]

I tried to follow instructions and as you can see on the first picture I uploaded (square picture with snow and small tribune, I boosted image contrast to demonstrate defect clearly ) I got weird magenta streak across the frame. It was development, blix, wash and stab – no stop and no presoak.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have only used the UniColor C-41 kit in the Jobo processor. I use the "P" speed, set the temperature and follow the directions. I have had no problems.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

...

...I do presoak twice at 100F / 38.5C for 30-45 seconds.


...So, next the Blix for 10-12 minutes (I do it longer than Tetenal recommends – 6 minutes). Wash and Stab.

I use same kit for second year and 15+ films now, simple developing tank and tap water.
Not so crazy about exact temperature and times.

Why to presoak twice and such long time for bilx? This is not how it described in the manual.

Are you using tap water? My Russian buddies often don't.

 

[Irji]

Hello Ko.Fe.!

I presoak twice because after the first presoak at 100F / 38.5C temperature of the tank will be near 35-36C. After the second presoak temperature is perfectly stabilized.
When I just started with c41 I didn't presoak at all.

I use filtered tap water only for wash steps. I mix my chemistry with distilled water.

I blix more, because tetenal mentions in the manual that «times given for blix are minimum times and may be exceeded by 50%» especially if you reuse blix bath few times.

 

[Rudeofus]

Two things: first of all, whenever I had problems with Tetenal C-41 and streaking, it always happened with 120 roll film, never with 135 format. This may explain why people report success while others have issues.

Second: 500ml is the correct amount for 1520 with inversion processing, but AFAIK not for rotary processing. As a result there is a chance that you contaminate your soup during processing with the water bath.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Your scanned images are very dense and high in contrast. This would indicate a development problem, or lack of bleach activity. So, something is going on here that is not described above yet.

A prewet is always a good idea, especially if you are doing color. A stop is always good, especially if you get streaks.

Can you comment on the high density and contrast?

PE

 

[Irji]

Hello Rudeofus!

I don't think that volume is a problem untill it not less than 250ml. I checked my tanks carefully and there are no leaks.
Hm.. and I'm very carefull with my chemistry, so I'm sure there is no cross contamination between developer and something else.

 

[Irji]

Hello, PE!
Sorry, I forget to point that i boosted contrast in PS to make streaks more visible. The original automatic scan from Nikon looks like that:

This is fresh Portra 160 (exp. 2015)
This film was developed in the new batch of chemistry. Presoak, Development for 3'15", stop bath 2% Acetic acid for 1 minute, Wash for 3' in tap water, blix for 8', wash for 20', Stab for 1'.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Thanks, that looks better. Now, I can go back to a basic answer. It is not the chemistry or the process sequence IMHO, I think there is not enough solution and not enough agitation. At the start, give the tank extra vigorous agitation and up the rotation rate. This will probably help out.

It looks like solution swirling around at the start of the process and thus unevenly wetting the film giving the streaks.

PE

 

[CatLABS]

I do presoak twice at 100F / 38.5C for 30-45 seconds.

That is most certainly not in the instructions.

I use 2% acetic acid stop bath.
After stop bath I take the tank to the bathroom and wash film for 3’ with jobo bubble washer at 100F / 38.5 C
So, next the Blix for 10-12 minutes (I do it longer than Tetenal recommends – 6 minutes).

Stop is also not indicated so is running the blix longer (for what reason?).

Following the kit instructions would be the first thing to try, in order to trouble shoot your problem.

The Tetenal kit is bulletproof when you do.

500ml in a 1520, is about twice the needed quantity, and may or may not cause various pattern issues (no way to tell with your specific procedure as it is so far departed from the baseline), and would also be a thing to check.

If you use the tetenal kit as one shot, you do not run any risk of cross contamination, or other mixing issues, which can be unpredictable, and impossible to trace.

 

[Rudeofus]

Stop is also not indicated so is running the blix longer (for what reason?).

Stop is pretty much essential if you want to process 120 format roll film with Tetenal's C-41 soup. Tetenal's C-41 instructions (page 7) explicitly recommend a stop bath, because it "increases process reliability when the bleach fix bath is reused several times". It is also well known, that BLIX runs to completion, and Photo Engineer has repeatedly stated that BLIX times should be extended for complete silver removal.

500ml in a 1520, is about twice the needed quantity, and may or may not cause various pattern issues (no way to tell with your specific procedure as it is so far departed from the baseline), and would also be a thing to check.

This may well be the issue: there is a good chance that 500ml in a rotary processor don't agitate all that well, and give worse results than the recommended 250ml.

PS: Using C-41 process chemistry single shot is quite expensive and not necessary, and these kits are specifically formulated for reuse.

 

[CatLABS]

Stop is pretty much essential if you want to process 120 format roll film with Tetenal's C-41 soup

How is 120 roll film different then any other roll or sheet film as far as a stop bath is concerned?

It is also well known, that BLIX runs to completion, and Photo Engineer has repeatedly stated that BLIX times should be extended for complete silver removal.

This may well be the issue: there is a good chance that 500ml in a rotary processor don't agitate all that well, and give worse results than the recommended 250ml.

PE also said you did not have enough solution in the tank. Following the instructions would be better.

PS: Using C-41 process chemistry single shot is quite expensive and not necessary, and these kits are specifically formulated for reuse.

C41 chemistry is designed for one shot use and so is the Jobo system. The stated 55-60 rolls per 5L is a number derived of single use/one shot (for the developer at least, even if the blix can be re used). How many more rolls do you get out of re use? at what cost, at what risk? The kit is plenty reliable when using as one shot, and as you have found becomes completely unpredictable when re using it or deviating from the base line.

In any case eliminating the pre wash will most likely solve all of your problems.

 

[Rudeofus]

How is 120 roll film different then any other roll or sheet film as far as a stop bath is concerned?

Beats me. But seven years of experience with Jobo tank development of C-41 film tells me that there is a difference between 135 and 120 roll film. Several reports about yellow streaks with Tetenal's C-41 soup and 120 formatroll film were contrasted by many success stories from people with 135 format film, just like here. The difference here in this thread is that lrji does use a stop bath and still gets odd patterns on his film.

PE also said you did not have enough solution in the tank. Following the instructions would be better.

The instructions say 250ml, and lrji used 500ml, so you can't blame him for using too little chemistry. Even if the results look to PE's eyes like a case of too little process chemistry, this situation here is not such a case.

C41 chemistry is designed for one shot use and so is the Jobo system. The stated 55-60 rolls per 5L is a number derived of single use/one shot (for the developer at least, even if the blix can be re used). How many more rolls do you get out of re use? at what cost, at what risk? The kit is plenty reliable when using as one shot, and as you have found becomes completely unpredictable when re using it or deviating from the base line.

The kit's instructions specifically describe how to use this kit multi shot. This is especially relevant if one uses inversion development with 250 ml chemistry per 135 format roll.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I said it was insufficient agitation. You can get that 2 ways, namely: too slow of a rotation rate or too much liquid. Since OTOMH, I did not remember the Jobo instructions on volume per tank, I mentioned both! As for stop and 120, the larger surface area of 120 film magnifies small differences in density and differences are larger on 120 due to the large surface area present which needs a rapid change in pH.

Reuse is possible using standard tables. The best is on the EK web site IIRC. However, with a prewet you do need to not only use the EK recommendations but keep an eye on the negatives for low density or contrast. If you see this, you are not draining out the prewet sufficiently and are diluting the developer as you use it.

And nowhere have I seen C41 described as one shot.

PE

 

[pentaxuser]

As the OP is using a Jobo CPE2 rotary processor then I fail to see how the agitation is inadequate per se. However as maybe others have said the 1520 needs only 240mls for rotation so the CPE2 may be struggling to turn 500mls properly. 500mls or 485 mls to be strictly accurate is only needed when it is inversion agitation.

On the matter of using the developer on a once and dump basis can CATLABs or anyone else explain how 5L or 5000mls does 55 -60 films. If the tank needs 240mls for rotation but that will do 2x120 or 2 x 135 films then doesn't this give 40 films maximum from 5L of developer or have I missed something?

OP, I'd cut your developer to 240mls, use the top speed on the processor and see if this makes a difference

Best of luck

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

As the OP is using a Jobo CPE2 rotary processor then I fail to see how the agitation is inadequate per se. However as maybe others have said the 1520 needs only 240mls for rotation so the CPE2 may be struggling to turn 500mls properly. 500mls or 485 mls to be strictly accurate is only needed when it is inversion agitation.

On the matter of using the developer on a once and dump basis can CATLABs or anyone else explain how 5L or 5000mls does 55 -60 films. If the tank needs 240mls for rotation but that will do 2x120 or 2 x 135 films then doesn't this give 40 films maximum from 5L of developer or have I missed something?

OP, I'd cut your developer to 240mls, use the top speed on the processor and see if this makes a difference

Best of luck

pentaxuser

The rotation speed may be too low. Start with the "P" setting.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Following the kit instructions would be the first thing to try, in order to trouble shoot your problem.

RTFM ==> Read The Friendly Manual

 

[Photo Engineer]

As the OP is using a Jobo CPE2 rotary processor then I fail to see how the agitation is inadequate per se. However as maybe others have said the 1520 needs only 240mls for rotation so the CPE2 may be struggling to turn 500mls properly. 500mls or 485 mls to be strictly accurate is only needed when it is inversion agitation.

On the matter of using the developer on a once and dump basis can CATLABs or anyone else explain how 5L or 5000mls does 55 -60 films. If the tank needs 240mls for rotation but that will do 2x120 or 2 x 135 films then doesn't this give 40 films maximum from 5L of developer or have I missed something?

OP, I'd cut your developer to 240mls, use the top speed on the processor and see if this makes a difference

Best of luck

pentaxuser

Try filling a cylindrical container to the very top and then cap it! Now try to agitate! There is no movement other than thermally induced movement and thus with too much solution, the agitation decreases gradually to zero as you approach the max the tank can take. With a rotary processor this is critical, but with hand agitation it is just a tad less critical.

Also, read the Rotary Processing Journal published by Jobo. It is a series of very helpful articles in pamphlet form and published by Jobo over the years to supplement the manual. It it, they recommend higher speeds for some processes.

PE

 

[Irji]

That is most certainly not in the instructions.

Maybe we talk about different kits? I use Tetenal C-41 Rapid and the manual mentions that i should use stop bath, extended blix time and 2 minutes prewash (not preheat) in case of uneven development

 

[Irji]

This may well be the issue: there is a good chance that 500ml in a rotary processor don't agitate all that well, and give worse results than the recommended 250ml.

Hm... It is very good idea! Thank you! I haven't thought about it. I use 500 ml because I apprehended uneven wetting of film with my Jobo without lift. Maybe there is insufficient agitation at start of development. But I’m not sure.

 

[Irji]

The rotation speed may be too low. Start with the "P" setting.

I changed motor in my Jobo unit and now rotation speed #2 near 80-85rpm with 500ml tank.

 

[Irji]

Try filling a cylindrical container to the very top and then cap it! Now try to agitate! There is no movement other than thermally induced movement and thus with too much solution, the agitation decreases gradually to zero as you approach the max the tank can take. With a rotary processor this is critical, but with hand agitation it is just a tad less critical.

Also, read the Rotary Processing Journal published by Jobo. It is a series of very helpful articles in pamphlet form and published by Jobo over the years to supplement the manual. It it, they recommend higher speeds for some processes.
PE

Rotation speed is near 80-85 rpm with 500ml of liquid in the tank – very fast. But 500 ml in 1520 tank means that this tank is full of liquid, so it could be my fault. You are right! Now I can see that such huge volume of developer may lead to uneven development, especially for film parts near central column of tank.

If I try to use 300ml instead of 500ml how fast should I mount my tank on the machine to prevent uneven wetting of film if I use Jobo without lift? Is 4-5 seconds between tapping cap on and starting of rotation too much?

It will be great if you are so kind to answer some of my questions:
1) These magenta streaks are underdevelopment or overdevelopment? I can’t get it – is it low magenta or high cyan and yellow on negative?
2) Is it necessary to wash between stop and blix or bleach? And how long I should wash?
3) Is there any chance that development continuous in blix if developer carryover takes place?

 

[Sirius Glass]

What is the maximum amount of chemicals stated on the tank itself?