Need help on first 4x5 camera purchase

Ok,its time to take the plunge into 4x5.
I am not looking for a studio camera. I backpack very light and easy, scenic hikes. Or for travel as well to different destinations. So I am looking for something that is relatively lightweight, and compact for a 4x5. Optics have to be terrific. I mean, that is why I am going 4x5. I want unbelievably sharp photos. I have been content with 35mm 8x10 enlargements, and 120 film to 11x14. I want to be blown away.
Cost is a consideration. I have no idea what i need here.

Will the grafiks cameras work for me? I dont know how good they are. I def dont want junk. I want something that i dont need to regret or trade up right away.

thanks

I highly suggest a Shen hao... Very good quality considering Its chinese made...

If you want ultimate light weight look for a 4/5 gowland rail camera
Optics... Lots of great optics... Fujinon is a good starter lens but my favorite that I used was a rodenstock g 150mm




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1) Location -- where are you located? It helps for us to know.
2) What is your budget -- dollar/pound/or whatever
3) Color and/or B&W?
4) Processing yourself?

The Crown and Speed Graphics are nice cameras, limited movements, something you would be likely to trade up from after a few trips. A lightweight wood folder, such as a Tachahara, or the new ones out of China, would do you well. Your tripod for your 120 camera might do with a field 4x5. I suggest one lens...some people like the 135mm, but I prefer the 150mm for a little more movements. If you are mostly doing the grand landscape, than a longer lens might do -- 180mm (rare) or a 210mm (common). Any modern lens will suit your needs for sharpness, and the 150mm are pretty inexpensive.

Film holders add weight. There are other options, too.

Check the Large Format Photography Forum. They have camera and lens comparisons, general info, etc on the site. Worth doing some reading over there.

I have a Gowland PocketView and a 150mm/5.6 Caltar IIN on a Gitzo 300 series tripod (over-kill). Camera and lens weighs in at 2.5 pounds, and the tripod/head about 7 pound. A field rail camera, it does not fold up into its own box like the wood folding cameras. I love mine, but some folks like a little more precision. It had been down into the Grand Canyon a few times, on a bicycle for 5 months, and inside a pack taking buses through Costa Rica. I never have used anything but the 150mm on it. My 5x7 kit has a couple lenses, and I am afraid the 8x10 and 11x14 cameras have multiple lenses!

You want sharp, fair enough. Main limiting factors there are the lens quality (modern plasmats are cheap and good; buy a super-expensive APO-something only if you like to shoot wide open) and the camera rigidity. Rigidity is where you have an annoying tradeoff against weight. And you need an excellent tripod.

A wooden folder will be very affordable, but they tend to shake a bit when there's wind and some are hard to tighten down. A metal folder (e.g. Toyo) will be more rigid but weighs a lot more; the prices are similar if buying used. However, consider that while your camera is probably the single heaviest thing you're carrying except maybe the tripod, it will likely be only a small portion of the weight. So don't think of it in terms of "this camera is 2x heavier than that one", it's more like "this camera will add 15% to my total load".

If you can afford it, a metal camera on a carbon tripod will be lighter and more rigid than a wooden camera on an aluminium tripod, for example.

The next big question is "how much movement do you want?". If you're shooting ultrawide and don't do movements, there are very compact and expensive cameras you can buy with zero movements but that can be used practically point-and-shoot. If you want to have dramatic subject isolation from tilts and swings and/or perspective correction (shifts), then the various cameras have different limits. The more flexible ones tend to be heavier though...

Read through EVERY article in the front page of LFPF.

I think you may need to figure out a couple of things in your mind first. You will need to carry a light meter, unless you use the sunny 16 rule or have been shooting long enough and often enough that, within reason, you don’t need a light meter.

Any 4x5 camera will do pretty much what you want to do, but sharp as anything pictures takes dedication, practice, practice and more practice. You will also need to carry a tripod that can hold the weight of your camera without too much flex, otherwise start getting down and using bean bags, which aren’t too bad an idea.

You may wish to think about a graflex back that holds 6 sheets of film, which is great, but that back takes slightly more room than 2 double dark slides (DDS) containing 4 sheets of film, so not too much advantage there. I have both of these, Graflex backs and DDS. Not absolutely necessary, but handy, is a changing bag, more space.

Now the biggest killer, dust. Dust and/or dirt can get into and onto film or the insides of the DDS. Not really a great idea, especially if you are not that flash at spotting prints, your call. But you really need to load your DDS at home in a really clean place and place them in zip-locked plastic stuff to keep dust out, both before and after shooting.

As far as cameras go, anything with enough movement for moderate manipulation should be adequate, unless you are doing buildings where you may require some serious movements. You should probably have a single lens with quite wide coverage, to allow you to shoot straight or ensure you can cover the film no matter how wild you movements are. Not a requirement, but nice to have.

Probably the biggest asset, is to have a lens that will enable the camera to fold up with the lens still attached, this is my definite requirement for backpacking my 4x5 wood field camera.

Almost any camera you can find to start you off in the direction of where you may ultimately end up, should be what you look for. You may get your permanent camera first go, but not likely unless you try a couple of different systems prior and know what you need.

I have more than a handful of 4x5 cameras, but the ones that fit your description are a wooden folder and a converted Polaroid. The wooden folder I have is a Shen Hao and it is kitted out for back packing with a Fujinon-W 1:63/150 lens. I’m not saying this is the sharpest lens around, but all things considered it’s pretty much an all-rounder with more than enough sharpness, in fact it is almost a sleeper of a lens as many people don’t think too much of them, until they use them. The Fujinon lens when reversed, allows you to fold the Shen Hao, thereby eliminating any back pack space.

My converted Polaroid camera is a Razzle, no longer available as the manufacturer passed away recently. Mine is equipped with the same Fujinon-W 1:63/150 lens, works a treat and I generally use it with a Graflex back for portraits. I have taken it in a back pack once. Too heavy and a bit ungainly to pack, so I don’t back pack it. I know someone who does and it works very well for her.

Some food for thought.

Mick.

polyglot said:

... Read through EVERY article in the front page of LFPF.

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+1

I'll chime in here as well about equipment. My kit is was chosen to be small and lightweight. I carry a wooden folding camera, most often a Wista DX. It has the advantage of folding up with a small lens inside. I carry 4-5 lenses, but they are all very small. Small means less capacity for movements, especially in shorter focal lengths, so if you are planning on doing architectural work, etc., you may want to rethink. That is, after you read up and get a good idea of what you are dealing with.

For a rundown on lenses, and especially lightweight lenses, see Kerry Thalmann's website: http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/

If you really want lightweight, then you need to compromise. Lens coverage, mentioned above, is one thing, lens speed, another (smaller lenses have smaller maximum apertures). Another is stability. (Now for some heresy) I use a lightweight tripod that is certainly not as stable as ones weighing three times as much. However, it holds the camera still enough if I am careful. All you need is for the camera to be completely motionless for the time of exposure. I have to deal with wind moving the camera sometimes, but rarely (maybe even never) have I had a negative ruined by the wind moving the camera... usually it is subject movement due to wind that ruins the shot.

I carry my wooden folder, 4 lenses, filters and a darkcloth in a medium-size lumbar pack. Light meter goes in a pocket and the tripod is in my hand for the most part (although I can strap it on the pack for scrambling). The point being, if you want small and light, you can easily achieve that. The question you really have to answer is whether you want to make the compromises to go that direction. That you can only answer after you know your way around LF.

So, to reiterate,

polyglot said:

... Read through EVERY article in the front page of LFPF.

Click to expand...

Best,

Doremus

I live in the United states. Pennsylvania. I would be welcome to any local guys that have a camera for sale.
I will be shooting black and white as well as color. I do my own developing. Negatives for now. My budget is 1500 tops. 500 sounds even better, but I doubt it

Mark -- Your first LF camera will likely not be your last. Starting with the perfect camera on the first try may be frustrating and expensive. Based on owning a variety of LF cameras over several decades, I'd start out cheap and upgrade as experience dictates. With careful shopping a Crown Graphic (perhaps stripped down), a 90mm Optar, and an Ektar 203mm f/7.7 will be under your $500 with money left over for a few necessary accessories. Based on experience with those two lenses, you'll know what focal length in the 125-150mm range fits your style best. The Ektar has been my most used lens for 40 years.

Knowledge is the most economical investment in photography. Study this and other sites. A good library may have the books you ought to be reading. If none in your area can help, google for view camera instructions. Leslie Stroebel wrote the most comprehensive, although recent editions are expensive. Older editions suffice; you can always get up-to-date information here. Several other authors are useful. In some parts of Pennsylvania there are camera clubs. A good club is a fine resource. Some clubs aren't.

Figure out how you are going to process the film. Tray developing is a big pain in the rear. So frustrating to go through all that work and the negative is too flawed to print.

The Shen Hao seems to be what most everyone else is buying for new cameras.
If you want to go used there are lots of options.
For sharpness, I'd look for an Apochromatic lens ("apo") in the focal length you want.
Have fun!

GKC said:

The Shen Hao seems to be what most everyone else is buying for new cameras.

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There's one for sale in the classifieds right now, nudge nudge wink wink.

I rode around with this camera on my bike, so it would likely be fine for backpacking. In a case, it would go nicely in a pannier. Probably not great for super-wide lenses though--I could make it work with a 90mm SA with a recessed board, but shorter than that would be difficult. On the other hand, being on the bike usually meant taking a smaller lens anyway--such as the 150 Fujinon or 203 ektar that would fit inside while folded.

RE lenses: How wide and how long? What are your focal length preferences for 135 format? Same question for 120 (and what format... 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9, 6x12)? Do you need a lot of camera movements or will lenses that "just cover" work well for you?

RE camera: How easy-to-use do you want it to be? Do you want something really versatile with lots of movements but is more "fiddly" or do you want something "quick and easy" to set up but with few/limited movements?

I like Speed Graphics, Crown Graphics, Linhofs ... because they can be hand held or used as view cameras. It is all in the lenses.

Sirius Glass said:

I like Speed Graphics, Crown Graphics, Linhofs ... because they can be hand held or used as view cameras. It is all in the lenses.

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Agreed most bodies will move well enough to take a good crisp picture... I sold everything except my stripped crown graphic and my meridian b ....

Most importantly imho is the tripod and lens assuming body is working properly


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i recently dove into analog for various reasons, but have filled out a collection of 35, mf and most recently 4x5. It became clear that there was much more to consider in LF, but not enough to scare me off. There is so much great information and advice, that time is well spent identifying your specific needs and practical options. I decided that a later model graflex super graphic meets my current needs to learn on. A stripped down crown graphic was another candidate. The super (speed) graphics have a nice feature with its rotating back, making it even a little more easy to setup. The chassis is aluminum, perhaps making it a bit more rigid but not any heavier. It packs up tidy, is not too fiddly and weighs in fairly close to my bronica etr 645 system (w/backs, accessories etc.)...all considered, im happy with this combo. I did invest in a more appropriate tripod&head (mt055xpro3/808rc4), which will also serve the bronica better on windy days. In my current fitness condition, I couldn't see myself hauling this around for very long distances...just not as young and outgoing as I use to be, but for short hikes and casual destinations, no problem.

Hatchetman said:

Figure out how you are going to process the film. Tray developing is a big pain in the rear. So frustrating to go through all that work and the negative is too flawed to print.

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I have a black tank for 4x5 with a clear and orange holder that I bought with a lot of darkoom gear.

Old-N-Feeble said:

RE lenses: How wide and how long? What are your focal length preferences for 135 format? Same question for 120 (and what format... 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9, 6x12)? Do you need a lot of camera movements or will lenses that "just cover" work well for you?

RE camera: How easy-to-use do you want it to be? Do you want something really versatile with lots of movements but is more "fiddly" or do you want something "quick and easy" to set up but with few/limited movements?

Click to expand...

I like wide, and up to 80mm. That usually works, unless I have to zoom in on something. (for 35mm)

Jim Jones said:

Mark -- Your first LF camera will likely not be your last. Starting with the perfect camera on the first try may be frustrating and expensive. Based on owning a variety of LF cameras over several decades, I'd start out cheap and upgrade as experience dictates. With careful shopping a Crown Graphic (perhaps stripped down), a 90mm Optar, and an Ektar 203mm f/7.7 will be under your $500 with money left over for a few necessary accessories. Based on experience with those two lenses, you'll know what focal length in the 125-150mm range fits your style best. The Ektar has been my most used lens for 40 years.

Knowledge is the most economical investment in photography. Study this and other sites. A good library may have the books you ought to be reading. If none in your area can help, google for view camera instructions. Leslie Stroebel wrote the most comprehensive, although recent editions are expensive. Older editions suffice; you can always get up-to-date information here. Several other authors are useful. In some parts of Pennsylvania there are camera clubs. A good club is a fine resource. Some clubs aren't.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I think I am going to look at the graflex super graphic and crown graphics for now.

I dont know the exact term, but do you need a black cloth over your head when ligning up the subject, and focusing?

For new besides Shen Hao there is the Chamonix line. Bit pricier but better finish. Good deals often on the Large Format Photography Forum. Need to wait 30 days to see classifieds.

markd514 said:

I like wide, and up to 80mm. That usually works, unless I have to zoom in on something. (for 35mm)

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Okay, so wide angle and up to 2x focal length. How wide... 16mm, 24mm, 35mm?

Where in Pa are you?

markd514 said:

I dont know the exact term, but do you need a black cloth over your head when ligning up the subject, and focusing?

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It's called a dark cloth. You can use a black oversized T shirt or sweat shirt instead and save some money. Some cameras like the Crown and Speed Graphics and the metal Toyo and Wistas have fold out hoods.

I got into 4x5 with a monorail Cambo that came with a 210mm lens. That's still my most used lens even though I like wider in smaller formats. I've since added a Speed Graphic (for the focal plane shutter), Crown Graphic, and a Chamonix F1. Each is best in different circumstances. The Crown has a good rangefinder so I can use it sorta as a point and shoot. The Speed has the focal plane shutter so I can use non-standard lenses. The Chamonix really does just about everything I've used the Cambo for, though the Cambo is capable of slightly more movements and likely a greater range of lenses. I have even hiked short distances with the Cambo, though the Chamonix really beats it there. All those since 2007.
So don't get hung up on picking the perfect one first. Find something used and cheap, try it out, see what you like and don't like. Then they'll start to breed when you leave them in a closet for a short time (at least, that's what I'm pretty sure happened with mine).
And I'll be back in SW PA later this spring, if you're near there and need help or want to go shoot.

I suggest getting a copy of Steve Simmons Using The View Camera first.