Need a hand with sorting salt prints out please!

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ajmiller

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I've been trying out salt prints for a few months now with varying degrees of success. I'm following Christine Z Anderson's process. After exposing the negative she recommends a 5% salt wash for the 'removal of excess silver nitrate'. On some YT videos I've seen there is a definite cloudiness to the water when the silver nitrate is removed. I don't see that in my own process.
1. Is it possible I have no excess silver nitrate? Or am I not clearing it enough? (I use her recipe - 15g silver nitrate to 100ml distilled water. I use 5ml solution for an 8 x 10 print. Allow to air dry and then expose.)
2. I've attached an example of a print I processed last night. I'm just starting to use film negatives so this looks underexposed but it's the overall 'flat' look that bothers me.
I'm wondering if the two could be connected - not clearing the silver nitrate leaving this look?
Thanks for any insights or advice.
Tony
 

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Question: are you developing your negatives appropriately to produce the extra contrast and density for Salt printing? The process requires significantly more density in the higher values to print well in salt. Your print lacks contrast and it’s likely because your negative doesn’t have the right density/contrast.
Please describe your process for making the negative you used.

If you are following Christina's instructions for the process, then you're doing things correctly. The first water rinse doesn't necessarily get significantly cloudy - it depends how much unexposed silver you're washing out, and your water quality, etc. The clearing bath is not responsible for the flat image quality, that is entirely the responsibility of your negative.

The unfortunate thing about Christina's manual is that it describes a workflow that relies on digital negatives, produced on Pictorico film with an Epson printer. Not everyone who wants to work with the Salted Paper process cares to use digitally produced negatives, myself included. So, for the part of the process that requires producing an in-camera negative appropriate for Salt printing, I turned to a published paper from Ellie Young (this is a link to the URL), in which she describes in exacting detail how to expose and develop film to create a negative that works properly with the Salted Paper process. I highly recommend you read her paper and follow her instructions. You will immediately improve your results.
 
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aconbere

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Have you printed a step wedge so that you know your minimum exposure to dmax and that the expected full tonal range is?
 

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aj, one of our members, Andrew O'Neill does salt prints. He makes videos of what he does under the name Analogue Andy. Have a look at his process to see if there are any differences

Yours looks fine except for that flat look as you say

pentaxuser
 
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ajmiller

ajmiller

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I'm just starting out using film for negatives instead of digital negs.
Film negative Foma 100. Exposure was f32 @ 1/4 sec. Under exposed by 2/3 rds stop. Developed in HC110 1:31 usual time is 5.30 for rotary in Paterson orbital - I processed for 10mins) I'm following Jim Noels advise here. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/neg-exposure-for-salt-prints.64419/#post-914494

Question: are you developing your negatives appropriately to produce the extra contrast and density for Salt printing? The process requires significantly more density in the higher values to print well in salt. Your print lacks contrast and it’s likely because your negative doesn’t have the right density/contrast.
Please describe your process for making the negative you used.
 
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I'm just starting out using film for negatives instead of digital negs.
Film negative Foma 100. Exposure was f32 @ 1/4 sec. Under exposed by 2/3 rds stop. Developed in HC110 1:31 usual time is 5.30 for rotary in Paterson orbital - I processed for 10mins) I'm following Jim Noels advise here. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/neg-exposure-for-salt-prints.64419/#post-914494

Jim's advice is reasonable, but I suspect your negative still lacks sufficient contrast and density.
I have tested Fomapan 100 as an alternative to FP4 (the BEST film you can use for making Salted Paper negatives) and found you can get usable negatives from it, but its not ideal: too much fog base density, which interferes with the ability to get good Dmax and an attractive tonal scale. you can make it work, but it's not ideal.

Please see my amended post above, discussing/linking to Ellie Young's article on Salted Paper printing, specifically her process for crafting the ideal negative.
 
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Thanks for the advice and link.

Jim's advice is reasonable, but I suspect your negative still lacks sufficient contrast and density.
I have tested Fomapan 100 as an alternative to FP4 (the BEST film you can use for making Salted Paper negatives) and found you can get usable negatives from it, but its not ideal: too much fog base density, which interferes with the ability to get good Dmax and an attractive tonal scale. you can make it work, but it's not ideal.

Please see my amended post above, discussing/linking to Ellie Young's article on Salted Paper printing, specifically her process for crafting the ideal negative.
 

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If 5% salt is your first bath, it is not abnormal that you don't see cloudy outcome. Mine does not cloud up either. If you use tap water as the first step, more likely you will see cloudiness. 5% salt essentially precipitates solid AgCl which stays in the paper whereas tap water, the result is more of a colloidal AgCl and other anions (source of cloudiness) that can easily get washed out of the paper. If there was any residual AgNO3, you would get staining during fixing (the reason why you need to remove it in the first place.) I don't see any staining in your print - whites are pretty clean, so it is doubtful if there is inadequacy in removal of AgNO3 from the paper.

:Niranjan.
 
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ajmiller

ajmiller

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That's good to know, thanks for your reply.
If 5% salt is your first bath, it is not abnormal that you don't see cloudy outcome. Mine does not cloud up either. If you use tap water as the first step, more likely you will see cloudiness. 5% salt essentially precipitates solid AgCl which stays in the paper whereas tap water, the result is more of a colloidal AgCl and other anions (source of cloudiness) that can easily get washed out of the paper. If there was any residual AgNO3, you would get staining during fixing (the reason why you need to remove it in the first place.) I don't see any staining in your print - whites are pretty clean, so it is doubtful if there is inadequacy in removal of AgNO3 from the paper.

:Niranjan.
 

nmp

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Another observation I will make is that judging from the whiteness of the flower pot on the right, I would say your negative does not lack the density, per se - as long as it is not grossly underexposed. Shadows are all clumped up so the problem might be at the other end of the curve. To confirm, you might want to do a exposure test to find the standard printing time (minimum expose time to get maximum black) in the clear part of the negative and print again with that time.

I am also intrigued by how neutral your print is - is it gold toned?

:Niranjan
 

koraks

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Sorry to hear/see you're having issues with salt prints @ajmiller, but don't feel bad about it - it's a deceptively simple process. Emphasis on 'deceptively'! The prints are gorgeous if they come out nicely, but it can take some work to get from "hey, I've got an image" stage to "this is actually a good print."

I'd suggest the following troubleshooting process:

1: Ensure that your process works and is consistent. Print the same thing (doesn't matter what) with the same parameters 3 times or so. If you get identical prints, that's a good sign. Be sure to mask a sensitized part of the paper with something that's perfectly opaque to UV during exposure (rubylith or lithographer's tape usually works OK). This masked part should come out paper white. It helps if this masked part covers a sensitized part of the paper and an adjacent unsensitized bit, so you can compare actual paper white (unsensitized) to sensitized, masked white. If you see a noticeable density on the sensitized but masked part, you have fog and your process is not under control. Fix this before proceeding. Also do a test for maximum density by deliberately overexposing a strip of sensitized paper. Put it in direct summer noon sun for half an hour or so (no glass cover etc.) and process it. This strip should come out (after drying) a satisfying very deep chocolate brown-bordering-on-black (measured density above 1.2logD if you happen to have a reflective densitometer - if you don't, just go by what your eyes tell you). If the black turns out grey or pale, your process is not under control and there are problems to fix. Ensure that you get a good evenness and no coating defects (streaks etc.) Change your coating/application methods if you have any problems with unevenness.

2: Establish the exposure time for proper dmax. Forget about negatives, step wedges etc. at this point. Just print a sensitized sheet/strip in your contact printing frame. Make a stepped exposure by covering part of the strip with a piece of card and moving that piece of card to make different exposure times. Try times in an exponential series: 1 minute, 2 minutes, 4, 8, 16, 32. You should see density increase in more or less equal steps. At some point, you'll notice that increased exposure does not yield additional density. The last exposure that gives a significant increase in density is a good base time to go with. Note that this exposure does not yet account for the base density if your film. You can do this same test with a blank sheet of film (inkjet or camera film, depending on what you use). If you use camera film, ensure the blank sheet is unexposed, but developed and fixed. Development is important because it can add a small amount to the base density. When judging densities, do so on processed, dried prints/strips. Ignore the density you see during the process; it's deceptive.

3: Now print a negative and/or step tablet (I like the Stouffer T2115) with your base exposure time. If you determined that time using a blank sheet of film, then use that time. If you determined the time without film, so just the paper in the contact frame, I'd recommend to do some tests with small increments, e.g. 2, 4 & 6 minutes on top of the base exposure time. This is to account for the additional density of the base. This test will tell you what the density range of the process is. You'll notice that your salt prints will show differentiation between the 0 density step and ca. 2.30logD (or even a little more) on your step tablet, with the highest densities being paper white. You can now proceed to make negatives (inkjet printed, camera negatives) with the proper density range to get a full-scale print.

4: Verify your negatives; I personally like to work on 4x5" for this when using camera negatives. Make a suitable (as best you can) negative and print it side by side with a step tablet using the exposure time you've established before, and be sure to mask at least one sensitized edge to check for fog. Verify that the blacks are OK, the whites are clear and the negative indeed occupies the expected tonal range. If the image comes out too dark, do not be tempted to expose the print shorter but fix the negative (make a new one or chemically intensify it). In principle there's nothing inherently wrong with underexposing your prints, but the results will virtually always be lackluster and disappointing. You'll realize at some point it's a waste of time trying to 'fix' prints from weak negatives. On the other hand, if your print comes out too light, you can try increasing exposure, but you'll likely lose some shadow detail. So you're balancing on a knife's edge if you want to make a really good print. Don't worry though - as it turns out, it's a pretty blunt knife and there's plenty of room to balance on it. If your print comes out with the proper tonal range, but the shadows are too blocked up, you'll need to expose the image (in camera) longer and maybe adjust development (a little shorter) to get the same tonal range.

If you're working with inkjet digital negatives, your linearization/calibration process takes place after step 3 and not earlier. Linearizing a process that's not demonstrated to be in control is a waste of time.

So much for the general stuff. Coming back to your actual print, a few remarks:

* Two parameters are missing from your description: how much salt (sodium chloride) is on your paper and how you expose the print (type of light source, power, distance + exposure time). It's very hard to say anything sensible without knowing these two parameters.

* I'm asking about the salt (chloride) specifically because your prints looks remarkably neutral in tone. Untoned salt prints are virtually always a lot warmer in hue. Getting this cool tone with low density can be indicative of either too much or too little chloride to go with your silver. The ratio of chloride to silver is absolutely critical for getting optimal results. Again, this is a blunt knife so there's a certain bandwidth that turns out to work OK (with some contrast and hue variation in this bandwidth), but you need to hit it fairly exactly to get good maximum density. Too much salt as well as too little salt will both result in low density and flat prints. I personally use an 11% silver nitrate solution and 1.6% sodium chloride; both applied in equal amounts; a 4x5" print takes me ca. 0.75ml of each to fully coat (with a margin), but this depends strongly on the absorbency of the paper.

* I prefer to brush-coat the paper with a measured amount of salting solution, then dry, then either brush- or puddle-pushing coat the paper with the silver nitrate solution (again a measured amount). I find this gives good control (and consistency!) over how much salt and silver actually end up on the paper. Methods involving floating can work well, but can also induce problems in this regard under influence of environmental parameters like moisture content of the paper, paper type, temperature etc. I've never found the addition of a wetting agent (Tween, Photoflo) to help any and in fact I've only seen it make matters worse on papers that somehow protest against being printed on. YMMV.

* Fomapan 100 is a fine film for salt prints (I've used it for several years, also for salt printing). I've not developed it in HC110 so I can't reflect on that other than that I think you should be in the ballpark with your ca. 2x development time compared to normal development for silver gelatin printing. Your negative does look underexposed judging by the lack of separation in the shadow areas. You may want to rate this film at EI50 and when metering the scene, ensure that no important shadows end up at lower than -1.5 to -2.0 stops. I find that a properly exposed salt print works well with a negative that has fairly robust shadow separation.

Given the remarks above, I expect that your work for now is in step 1: getting the printing process to work in the first place. I'd not worry about negatives for now, and focus on getting a good dmax.

As you may have realized, everyone has their own ways of doing this and one way is not inherently better than another. As long as you're getting good prints, what you're doing is evidently right. Until you reach that point, take inspiration from anyone and everyone, and happily borrow & steal tricks & procedures that make sense to you. Try to experiment systematically to find what works for you, and always try to explain the problems you run into. An unexplained problem is more often than not one that'll bite you in the behind sooner or later, even if it seems to go away all by itself.

Years ago, I made this video of how I did the process at that time; generally speaking I still work in the same way, although I prefer to brush coat instead of puddle-push as long as I get good evenness that way.

Also have a look at @Andrew O'Neill's videos; you'll notice he does things differently from how I do them (and we probably both deviate from Ellie here and there). Again, none of us is right or wrong; we just do what we have determined works for us.
 
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Andrew O'Neill

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Which paper are you using? Buffered papers usually don't work well, resulting in a muted densities. These types of papers benefit greatly from a pre-acid bath, which helps neurtralise/remove the buffering. Citric Acid, or something stronger like Sulfamic Acid, is usually used.
 

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I agree generally with others that the "flat" look is probably more related to the negative and exposure than the washing sequence. And, yes, you always have excess silver nitrate in salt printing, otherwise you wouldn't get printing out! That said, I agree with Niranjan about the washing... I know Christopher James and Christina Anderson and others use a salt solution for the first wash but that never made a lot of sense to me because it forms silver chloride that then needs to be removed with hypo. I like to use DH2O or RO water for the first wash or two, then the salt solution to make silver chloride from any remaining free silver ions in the paper. I did a good amount of testing both ways and concluded a plain water first rinse was less likely to leave free silver in the paper. Some people advise to agitate the paper face down in the first couple rinses to encourage any "cloudy precipitate" to fall toward the bottom of the tray into the liquid rather than into your paper... I do that too but never tested it face up so don't know if it really matters....
 

Rick A

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I'm just starting out using film for negatives instead of digital negs.
Film negative Foma 100. Exposure was f32 @ 1/4 sec. Under exposed by 2/3 rds stop. Developed in HC110 1:31 usual time is 5.30 for rotary in Paterson orbital - I processed for 10mins) I'm following Jim Noels advise here. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/neg-exposure-for-salt-prints.64419/#post-914494

I use EDU Ultra (Foma)100shot at iso 125 developed in PMK and rotary processed for 10 minutes (sometimes longer depending on the subject) to get good salt print negatives. I've also been playing with HC-110 that I usually use for silver gel prints. You need a somewhat contrasty negative for salt printing. A good rule is if you have to use a 0 or 00 filter to get a somewhat reasonable print on silver gel you should have a decent neg for salt.
What is your method of salting the paper? I'm using 2% kosher or sea salt and floating the paper for three minutes then air dry. I use a 12% silver solution to sensitize, again air dry (no heat). I also add a couple of ml of citric acid to my silver solution before coating.
 

koraks

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A good rule is if you have to use a 0 or 00 filter to get a somewhat reasonable print on silver gel you should have a decent neg for salt.
With pyro negatives this may be about right, but with negatives without stain it's on the thin side. Salted paper works best with negatives with a tonal scale of around 2.25logD. Refer to the violet curve below:
image-66.png

Compared to VC paper grades, grade 0 is defined as ISO-R 130-160 with 00 being >160. This means that grade 0 prints take negatives with a scale of 1.30 to 1.60logD and grade 0 a longer scale than 1.60logD. As you can see, this is (very much so) on the short side for salted paper.
If you develop in PMK, the additional stain may give enough UV density that does not play much of a role on a VC silver gelatin print for a salted paper print to come out well.

The practical implications are that:
* if density of the negative is measured, it's important to realize whether you're measuring optical or UV density, and whether the densities can be assumed to be the same
* development in e.g. HC110 (non-staining) will have to be different than in PMK as the stain plays a very significant role (hence the popularity of staining developers for this purpose).
 
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Thanks everyone for replies. I have plenty of ideas where to go next.
My process is as follows (which follows Anderson's method:
1. Using HPR paper;
2. Paper salting 20g sodium chloride to 1000ml water; then 5ml of this solution for 10x8 paper
3. Silver solution - 15g Silver nitrate to 100ml distilled water; then 5ml of this solution to sensitize 10x8 paper
4. Using DIY UV unit. The paper is about 7" from the lights and exposure times were in the region of two minutes for that particular print. (I know I do need to button down exposure times, DMAX etc).

My thoughts are mainly the salt to silver nitrate mix. I had some initial success with salt prints, starting with a Fotospeed kit, then progressed to mixing my own solutions THEN I changed the type of salt and I think that could be the issue. I stuck to my original measurements as Anderson's method but wonder if the sodium chloride needs re-adjusting. Originally I was using salt bought from Amazon but this latest is pure sea salt and has a high salinity (apparently).

Anyway, I am on a mission now and appreciate your pointers.
 
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With pyro negatives this may be about right, but with negatives without stain it's on the thin side. Salted paper works best with negatives with a tonal scale of around 2.25logD.

* development in e.g. HC110 (non-staining) will have to be different than in PMK as the stain plays a very significant role (hence the popularity of staining developers for this purpose).

These are extremely important points. You will have much better results if you adopt a staining type developer rather than something more traditional like HC-110.
The Pyro stain you get with PMK is a huge asset when crafting in-camera negatives intended for Salt (or Kallitype) printing. If you can see your way to switching to a Pyro developer, I believe you will discover how much more easily you will get much more satisfactory prints.
 

koraks

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Using DIY UV unit. The paper is about 7" from the lights and exposure times were in the region of two minutes for that particular print. (I know I do need to button down exposure times, DMAX etc).
What kind of unit is this; i.e. what kind of light source and what nominal power level? E.g. a bank of UV 6pcs 15W tubes, COB LEDs...?
Generally, with DIY light sources, exposure times are around 10-20 minutes, give or take a stop. Anything below 5 minutes means you're either using a helluva big light or you're not exposing to DMAX. The latter is more likely.

My thoughts are mainly the salt to silver nitrate mix. I had some initial success with salt prints, starting with a Fotospeed kit, then progressed to mixing my own solutions THEN I changed the type of salt and I think that could be the issue. I stuck to my original measurements as Anderson's method but wonder if the sodium chloride needs re-adjusting. Originally I was using salt bought from Amazon but this latest is pure sea salt and has a high salinity (apparently).
I'd recommend using just plain salt; it's important it's non-iodized. 'Sea salt' is a problematic term; I've seen anything called that way ranging from highly pure NaCl to crud evaporated in basins on the shores. It really helps if you know what you're putting onto the paper; once you got the hang of the process with controlled variables, there's plenty of room for experimentation. As to the iodized bit: iodide can affect printing qualities of a silver halide system enormously. If you only have a small amount of iodide in your salt, you can see dmax drop precipitously, exposure times run amok, fog popping up etc. Unless you have a very good idea of what you're doing and why, I'd make sure that there's no opportunity of iodide to find its way into your salt mix. Bromide is less of a concern, but chloride just work best for all I know (and is the cheapest). There's also very little benefit in experimenting with other cations beside sodium. Hence, sodium chloride is really the way to go.

Keep in mind that sodium chloride = sodium chloride. There's no such thing as a difference in 'salinity' between the two. We only use salinity to express the salt content of water. What does matter as pointed out above is the chemical composition of the salt you're using. In general, kosher table salt (in the US) is a good bet; around here in Europe it's generally the cheapest type of non-iodized table salt that works the same (kosher is less of a thing here).

Other than that, your ratio as described in your post looks in the right ballpark to me at 2% w/v salt and 15% w/v silver nitrate with equal amounts applied to the paper.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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koraks raises a good point about your UV exposure unit... I had one for screen printing, containing BLB tubes, that was adequate from exposing silkscreen emulsions, but not very suitable for the Alt processes I was using at the time (carbon, kallitype). It gave me very muted blacks. A few years ago, I built my own UV box, using LED strips found on Amazon. Works like a charm. My Salt exposures are around 8 minutes.
 
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Ok re. UV unit. Initially I used a face tanning machine and looking back at my notes the ones in my gallery here were all done with that. Just propped it up in front of the print vertically. 8 minutes was about the average exposure.
Example:


I still have the tanning machine so I'll retry my negatives using that I think.

The UV unit I made was using 6 of these strips.

Also, after @koraks post I'm more convinced the salt is part of the problem as well.

Ok I'll update when I've eliminated the variables. Thanks
 

koraks

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Initially I used a face tanning machine and looking back at my notes the ones in my gallery here were all done with that. Just propped it up in front of the print vertically. 8 minutes was about the average exposure.

I once started out that way, too. A decent salt print takes 15-30 minutes on that setup. You'll get a print alright at 8 minutes, but the dmax will be weak.

The UV unit I made was using 6 of these strips.
Exposures will be 10-20 minutes with these in all likelihood.

The difference in makeup of the salt can also account for the oddly neutral tone you're getting, so yeah, definitely see if you see difference with plain sodium chloride!
 
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