.. I think there was not so much a fraternity house but more of a fraternity that housed Tito's partisans
pentaxuser
...and about a quarter of a million of them are offered for sale on eBay at any given moment.
I have a box full...can't hardly sell them for the price of shipping.
Sometimes there is the point when critic is necessary. Members here have asked why photrio has become so unimportant in relation to instagram, youtube, facebook, reddit, especially for the strongly growing group of young film photographers.
I have asked the young film fans again and again over the years (I am a member of a regional, very active photographer group) and they have given me their answers. And I have just reported their answers here.
Like it or not, it is just the reality.
I mentor a fair number of young photographers, I also live a very hip / young life for a guy age 50+ plus so I am well aware of what you speak of here.
I tried for years to get others to see that the old guard attitude is driving away fresh eyes with fresh perspectives here. What I find really troubling and even more so than the film is dead chants are the blanket statements that put young people using film in a phase, hip or trend category but not a serious one. It’s as if there is no idea that young people who are choosing to use film are doing anything new with it or will stick with it long term, a cynical echo chamber.
In actual real life, I find photographers who are serious about the craft regardless of medium are indeed sticking with film and darkroom work if that is what they have chosen to communicate their vision. I helped set one guy who is 24 up with a darkroom this Spring, he is doing really well with it. Last night I helped a 20 year old former student of mine choose a 210mm 5.6 lens for a project on 4x5 he is about to start. The list goes on and what is really going on in the world of young people and film is sadly not very well reflected on this site in terms of any content, visual or written.
Bottom line? What my former students and young film using friends tell is that the value in this place for them is in the technical. Once they get that, they populate other venues that don’t have the attitude that this site can often display.
Maybe one day it will change here? All one can do is hope...
I might still count as a "young" photographer. I'm still under 30 with a freezer full of film and a bathroom stocked with chemicals. Here's my take.
I think the question is: "How many people are able to learn about film on a forum when they haven't been around a darkroom?" How would you teach someone about developing and printing techniques here?
It might make sense for people who have experienced seeing all sorts of different development and printing techniques before. To someone without that experience, me, talk of grain and sharpness between developers or contrast and tone while printing don't mean anything. I've never seen it in any meaningful context, and HP5+ in HC-110 works just fine for all I know.
I think the closest experience available to many of us is viewing edited, low quality scans online. It's really hard to drive across any information there. I would love for someone to bridge the gap and find a way to share this information.
Someone going on about finding the proper EL of their XTOL-R process they've verified with a densitometer for the new formulation of TX400 just doesn't have any bearing for the beginner developer on a budget.
I think the question is: "How many people are able to learn about film on a forum when they haven't been around a darkroom?" How would you teach someone about developing and printing techniques here?
It might make sense for people who have experienced seeing all sorts of different development and printing techniques before. To someone without that experience, me, talk of grain and sharpness between developers or contrast and tone while printing don't mean anything. I've never seen it in any meaningful context, and HP5+ in HC-110 works just fine for all I know.
-) Apug is no teaching medium
-) When a beginner is advised to first use one of the widespread textbooks a reply is "Who still reads books?".
-) A beginner looking at Apug's discussions is lead to think that analog photography is about things of the level of establishing EI, dedicated developers and intricate differences between films. On the advice of just starting, without all that headache, one is seen as arrogant and not taking the beginner serious.
-) Apug is no teaching medium
-) When a beginner is advised to first use one of the widespread textbooks a reply is "Who still reads books?".
-) A beginner looking at Apug's discussions is lead to think that analog photography is about things of the level of establishing EI, dedicated developers and intricate differences between films. On the advice of just starting, without all that headache, one is seen as arrogant and not taking the beginner serious.
They also feed the digital forums where latest and greatest is discussed to death. Only a handful of the young are interested in meh equipment, nasty chemicals, wait-forever to see what came out etc. It would probably take at least a generation of concerted effort in homes, schools and media to revert current mind set away from what is driving lives these days and continuing on same path for the worse. Why would one want to bother with something as arcane as shooting film, when they see everything being done ever so faster, leaving more time to finger-communcate with others?I've already received a lot of help here...
Like I said, I'm also on other forums and perhaps I have old-man-interests but I'd say that the lack of influx of younger people isn't unique here, it's everywhere. Internet forums seem to be for those of us who are a bit older, maybe those who thought that BBS's were once the shitznitz, perhaps those who remember what a BBS actually was.
My guess is that the younger crowd hang out in facebook grouos ot whatever is the new hot social media.
Kind of what we do here, the only difference is that the stuff we discuss isn't the lastest.They also feed the digital forums where latest and greatest is discussed to death.
And those are the ones that are the future of analog photography. Heck, those are the future, period.Only a handful of the young are interested in meh equipment, nasty chemicals, wait-forever to see what came out etc.
In addition, we have a recent thread going on about using Super 8 to document family holidays by @perkeleellinen who has my greatest respect ...Living in the past? Perhaps. No prejudice on my part!
What we do here is NOT, to a large extent, what they do OVER THERE. Infatuation with latest sensors, firmware, editing software etc. is just that. Analog process has always had topics to discuss, test to perform etc., but digital discussion by comparison is just plain tiring.Kind of what we do here, the only difference is that the stuff we discuss isn't the lastest.
And those are the ones that are the future of analog photography. Heck, those are the future, period.
There is no future in film, it will be there yes, but the future of commercial photography is in digital. The truth is that probably 99% of potential clients and viewers don't care what medium the photo was recorded on and nor should they. The elements which make up a good picture or photo are the same today as they were when da Vinci painted Mona Lisa, light, color and composition. Those don't change and it doesn't matter if we produce the picture using an ink pen, a smartphone or the latest digital medium format camera, the essence of the picture remains the same.
After all, what good is it to discuss cameras, film, paper, image editing software, memory cards, pencils, brushes, oil paint, canvases or any other gear meant for creating pictures, if the end purpose isn't to actually use it to produce said pictures? And when we do produce those pictures, we all have to adhere to the same "rules" or standards, regardless of our medium of choice.
Actually I take the time to teach a beginner on APUG when I am asked a question.
What we do here is NOT, to a large extent, what they do OVER THERE. Infatuation with latest sensors, firmware, editing software etc. is just that. Analog process has always had topics to discuss, test to perform etc., but digital discussion by comparison is just plain tiring.
I never said future is in film, all I said was in order for film to remain is to get the young interested. Digital and film can easily coexist, film will continue to have advantages for quite a few years over digital in some aspects, but not in run off a mill commercial photography, that boat has long sailed.
Seems like you missed my point. Gear used matters to many, but when you compare analog to digital users, there is no comparison. Digital discussions take things into technological direction to ridiculous lengths and they do it for only one reason: newer is better and you need newer to make your photographs better. it's a mind-set that manufacturers love to see and drive themselves too. It's all about ensuring supply of technology will remain incremental, no quantum leaps allowed, and discussions feed the same without even noticing the trend. it is insanity as far I am concerned.I think what we do here is exactly the same. Discussions regarding digital photography may be tiring to some but interesting to others. Similarly, what we discuss here is probably tiring to those who are not interested in it. Digital photography also have topics to discuss and many are commonly shared between the two, like composition, story telling through images etc. while others are specific to the medium but no less interesting to those involved with it.
Gear used matters to many, but when you compare analog to digital users, there is no comparison. Digital discussions take things into technological direction to ridiculous lengths and they do it for only one reason: newer is better and you need newer to make your photographs better.
Kind of what we do here, the only difference is that the stuff we discuss isn't the lastest.
And those are the ones that are the future of analog photography. Heck, those are the future, period.
There is no future in film, it will be there yes, but the future of commercial photography is in digital. The truth is that probably 99% of potential clients and viewers don't care what medium the photo was recorded on and nor should they. The elements which make up a good picture or photo are the same today as they were when da Vinci painted Mona Lisa, light, color and composition. Those don't change and it doesn't matter if we produce the picture using an ink pen, a smartphone or the latest digital medium format camera, the essence of the picture remains the same.
After all, what good is it to discuss cameras, film, paper, image editing software, memory cards, pencils, brushes, oil paint, canvases or any other gear meant for creating pictures, if the end purpose isn't to actually use it to produce said pictures? And when we do produce those pictures, we all have to adhere to the same "rules" or standards, regardless of our medium of choice.
Seems like you missed my point. Gear used matters to many, but when you compare analog to digital users, there is no comparison. Digital discussions take things into technological direction to ridiculous lengths and they do it for only one reason: newer is better and you need newer to make your photographs better. it's a mind-set that manufacturers love to see and drive themselves too. It's all about ensuring supply of technology will remain incremental, no quantum leaps allowed, and discussions feed the same without even noticing the trend. it is insanity as far I am concerned.
But in the end, it is the old blokes looking at the young, seeing the blind alley they are in, and by now realizing there is no hope.
I have no problem shooting digital, but also have no reservations saying, that those who don't know analog capture are missing a lot on many levels, and that is why I hope to see it eventually understood by new generations.
I disagree that the medium is just a means to an end. Sure, for the vast majority of snapshotters it is, but the transformation of the analog photography world is the transition from everyone and their mom taking snapshots with an instamatic and getting it processed at the pharmacy to a world of someone exploring the medium in depth in their basement darkroom.
I am a non-native speaker and I so far understood "teaching" as different from answering a question.
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