NBC short film documenting rise in film use

[pentaxuser]

AFAIK H. Serger's market research company has generated this data. At least that is what I have heard of.
But as you have often bashed him here, made unfriendly and aggressive jokes about him, you shouldn't expect to get the data.

OK as he won't give it to me, apparently can you as a friend get it. Not for me alone you understand but for all of us who wish the situation to be clarified. It might even have the added benefit of settling or helping to settle this interminable debate of "What is the long term future of film?

If Henning hasn't yet given the information out on Photrio and thus depriving us of important information to help settle this debate, is this because of me? I certainly appear to be his sworn enemy. Would he give it to us if I left Photrio and promised not to come back in disguise ?

It sounds from your reply, some of which I haven't included above I admit, that Henning might be reluctant to part with this information as it was expensive to obtain in terms of effort at least which I have no doubt about but I do wonder if keeping it to himself is helping to promote what appears to be good news for film

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Film-Niko]

pentaxuser, with all respect, but please do yourself a favor and think twice before posting. Your recent post is pure nonsense.

 

[miha]

you don’t get it. You’re out of line and criticizing others makes you part of the problem...puts you in the same lot as those you so self righteously criticize.

Exactly. With 191 posts in 11 years I wouldn't go criticizing some of the most established members with an immense contribution to this forum (AgX).

 

[Sirius Glass]

Both.
I have also regularly tried to motivate others, especially young photographers, to join photrio. But lots of them told me it is unattractive for them because of too much trolling (you remember RattyMouse, trendland, jtk etc.) which destroyed the discussion culture here for a much too long time. They also mentioned too much general negativity, too much grumpy old men who find a hair in any soup, and too much film-is-dead or the-glass-is-half-empty perpetual nagging.

And for years you belong here to the grumpy old men and film is dead group. Everytime when a positive news was posted, you posted a negative comment or a "but".
And you attacked members here who have real inside industry knowledge and know the data. You should finally realize that you are part of the problem, and not part of a solution.
Nobody wants to join a club which is permanently discussing about its own end!
Young film photographers see the film boom on instagram, youtube, facebook, reddit and so on. They see the new products which have been released recently and visit the new labs and shops. When they see all this crying and complaning here on photrio they only shake their heads, and disgustedly turn away.

Exactly.
You have hit the nail precisely.
Photrio has only a future if this attitude of lots this very vocal film-is-dead group here totally changes.
Or when the moderators finally have the backbone to ban these negative members which harm photrio.
Kodak is winning 1,000 new subscribers on instagram per day!! Photrio needs a full year for that. That tells you the whole story.

Add to that the Kodachrome is dead pissers and moaners, when will ever see HIE again, goddamn Fuji for not wanting to go out of business, Ilford is evil, Agfa should not have left the film business, "they" always discontinue MY FAVORITE FILM, and Kodak is the antichrist, plus RattyMouse and his cohorts are all a read drag to potential newcomers and the grumpy old men.

 

[AgX]

And for years you belong here to the grumpy old men and film is dead group. Everytime when a positive news was posted, you posted a negative comment or a "but".
And you attacked members here who have real inside industry knowledge and know the data. You should finally realize that you are part of the problem, and not part of a solution.

As someone better known than me already did, I must say that there are alternative facts.

When all I saw in my private life, thus outside the photochemical industry, and I was at photo academies, art academies, camera stores each week, spoke with young creatives, with art, design and photography students and deans, photography teachers, sales people, was contrary to what you experienced, should I start lying, just to please you?

From private conversations I can affirm you that many members here are tired of endless hailing posts, that are contrary to their experience.

Again and again I hinted at the fact that the rise of interest is geographically very different, even within countries.

Those members with real knowledge you hint at I neither saw at the industry nor at gatherings of photochemical scientists. I did my share for the rise within this dying industry likely more than any member here. Resulting in new jobs and taxes being paid.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Go into the bathroom and take a look in the mirror and see the enemy straight in the eye. This time your attitude is definitely a RattyMouse type problem.

 

[MattKing]

I have never seen an observation about market realities from AgX that isn't qualified by a geographic or market niche restriction.
The sort of restriction that it would be unlikely to find in the NBC film that inspired this thread in the first place.

 

[AgX]

The problem I see in approaching young folks is not that of negativity.
I do not run around wearing a "Film is Dead" T-shirt when I'm off this keyboard, back in real life. And neither am I promoting it as best thing since sliced bread. But I am telling folks what makes it my thing and they see me sporting these weird cameras.

The issue I see is that of no longer speaking the same language. I see that at all visits at academies, at mingling with students. Soon there form groups of lecturers and students. I see a great lot of seggregation. Being myself an utmost communicative guy, I have no problem approaching people, young as old. But with younger people I typically experience a barrier by the other side. Many people like me tell me of similar experiences. In modern socio-talk one would speak of peers.
Thus a Bessonova is more to them than an AgX.

Concerning old-farts: when I look at all that Adams and Weston talk here, and then go out into the art-world and see what young photographers are busy with, then Apug looks like a crypt.

 

[BradS]

It was OK as 10 minutes of lightweight viewing but lacked any real detail in terms of figures, threats/opportunities. Good job it wasn't a briefing on the state of Covid-19 that attempts to persuade us on the need for the continuation of restrictions. I fear that had it been it might have been judged to lack the necessary weight

pentaxuser

Quite right. It is a fluff piece...not even very heavily grounded in fact.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I don't see film dying. It's a niche market attracting a lot of new followers. Kodak makes some really nice emulsions: Ektar, TriX, Tmax, and again Ektachrome. I just took up 4x5 large format and love Velvia 50, a Fuji film. There's Ilford, and others getting in beside instant film companies. Sure it won't be big like it used to be. And films will come and go. But if you like to ride horses, you still need to buy horseshoes. As long as someone's willing to pay, someone's going to provide the products.

 

[AgX]

Another aspect to consider:
In 2019 I came across more people in their early 20's that told me that they tried film, but found it being not their thing and gave it up again than those who told me that it is their thing and they will go on.*
Both groups caused film revenue, but is that necessarily the rise in film use in the sense we are discussing?

Well, that is an incedental perception. But I put it up just to show that one must critically question any figure. Something I miss in these discussions.


*Instax aside

 

[pentaxuser]

pentaxuser, with all respect, but please do yourself a favor and think twice before posting. Your recent post is pure nonsense.

Can you tell me which bits were pure nonsense? If Henning has the figures on the trend in film sales as you think I was simply suggesting that it would be useful if these were shared. Otherwise all the parties to this discussion be they believers in film revival or non believers are condemned to give us anecdotal evidence only.

There has to be a better way to progress this debate, surely?

pentaxuser

 

[BradS]

......

*Instax aside

It is an interesting caveat.
For example, the WalMart here in town has three packs of Fuji Superia Xtra 135-36 and occasionally, very rarely three packs of other ASA200 Fuji Color negative film 135-36. That's it for roll film. They don't even carry Kodak Max 400 anymore. However, they do have a well stocked display case of all manner of instax film (?) and even a few instax cameras. Given this, I feel it is odd that people shun film due to cost concerns...

 

[cerber0s]

I'm new here and even though I've photographed off and on since the late 80's I'm also new to photography forums in general. I do however frequent guitar forums a lot and can't help but feeling a bit amused. If you only new how many parallels you can draw between these discussions.

Film is dead, people only use digital and sit in front of their computers.

Guitar playing is dead (funny since Fender had their best year ever, no doubt due to people being cinfined in their homes), kids nowdays only create electronic music. On their computers!

Digital photos look sterile!

Digital amplifiers sound sterile!

Film is organic and has an esthetic quality.

Tube amps sound warm and organic.

Just observations, carry on

 

[halfaman]

I don't think film is dead but definetevely the film era of photograhy is gone forever and it will never ever come back again. Period. Lets all assume it and move on.

Good thing is film sales seems that already hit the floor some years ago and manufacturers have adjusted to the market size. Looks like it can survive as a niche product, with periods of growth and loss but stable enough. A small business, but small things can be interesting too (for investors)!

 

[Team ADOX]

As here in this thread there is unfortunately some misinformation again by members without any knowledge about the film industry, therefore just the facts about the current situation:

Kodak mentions that their production has doubled in the last four years, and they expect a 30% yearly increase going forward.

- Not only Kodak, but all photo film manufacturers have increasing demand for their films. As always, some product types see higher growth rates than others.
- For some film types the demand is even so high that the manufacturers cannot produce enough to fully satisfy the demand. That is the reason why stocks of these film types are so often depleted at the film shops.
- Because of the increasing demand the big players Kodak and Fujifilm have reintroduced films (TMZ, E100, Acros II), and medium sized players like Ilford, Foma and Polaroid also have introduced new products (Ilford Ortho in 135 and 120, new Ilford papers - fibre and RC; Foma Retrobrom, Polaroid i-Type film and new cameras).
- Small players like ADOX and Film Ferrania are investing in new (ADOX Germany) or restructured (Film Ferrania; ADOX Switzerland) factories and new products. In the last years ADOX has introduced new products in every year.
- The demand for photo chemistry is increasing. Chemistry manufacturers like Tetenal, SPUR and ADOX have introduced new products therefore.
- The photo labs see increasing demand (by the way, "The Darkroom" lab in the US is currently installing new processing machines to increase their volume because of strong increasing demand; they have meanwhile 150,000 (!) subcsribers on instagram, mostly young photographers). Fotoimpex lab intends to increase their capacity in the mid term, too.
- The number of labs worldwide is increasing again.
- New film and film camera shops - often founded by young film enthusiasts - have opened.
- Several new manufacturers of large format film cameras have started production.
- Several new manufacturers of pinhole cameras have started production.
- New manufacturers for accessoires (e.g. for camera scanning) and instant film backs have started.
- The producers of lab equipment like JOBO, Heiland and Kienzle have increasing demand and are therefore introducing new products.
- Hostert has new orders for their big dip-and-dunk processing machines.
- New high-resolution RA-4 minilab machine from Noritsu.
- First companies have started to produce spare parts for camera repair, like Camera Rescue.
- New color papers by Fujifilm.
- Fujifilm instax is for years the most successful photo product, surpassing the sales volume of digital cameras. Instax instant film is a huge mass market. Fuji assess the user base around 40 million customers worldwide.

The film revival is reality. No one in the film industry is discussing whether there is a film revival or not. The data is very clear. All manufacturers in the industry have their sales data and see the increasing trends. All are discussing and working on strategies on how to further strengthen the film resurgeance.

The denying of the film revival is only done by people with no knowledge about the recent market developments and the industry. People who are kind of "thinking / living in the past". It has to be said so clearly.
Some members here have come to the conclusion that this disconnection to the market reality and general negative or pessimistic attitude of this group is counterproductive to the success of photrio (motivating young film photographers to join here; general mood in the forum). This assessment is certainly right. We have lots of young customers, they are excited about film. And they are also very well aware of the positive market developments, as their friends are using film, and they see the film boom on the social media channels and the online magazins. They know quite well what is currently really happening. And when they come here and see some of the discussions and postings, they shake their head and turn away.

It is absolutely understandable that ten years ago people were worrid about the future of film. Film has had to go through very difficult times. But times have changed significantly.
And we don't do us any favour in having superfluos discussions whether there is a film revival or not. It is there, and it is real. Period.
The focus now has to be how it can be further strengthened. And that is what photrio members can support with their positive activities. Spread positive vibes, spread the word, get other (young) photographers hooked with film and the joys of darkroom printing and slide projection.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[cerber0s]

As here in this thread there is unfortunately some misinformation again by members without any knowledge about the film industry, therefore just the facts about the current situation:



- Not only Kodak, but all photo film manufacturers have increasing demand for their films. As always, some product types see higher growth rates than others.
- For some film types the demand is even so high that the manufacturers cannot produce enough to fully satisfy the demand. That is the reason why stocks of these film types are so often depleted at the film shops.
- Because of the increasing demand the big players Kodak and Fujifilm have reintroduced films (TMZ, E100, Acros II), and medium sized players like Ilford, Foma and Polaroid also have introduced new products (Ilford Ortho in 135 and 120, new Ilford papers - fibre and RC; Foma Retrobrom, Polaroid i-Type film and new cameras).
- Small players like ADOX and Film Ferrania are investing in new (ADOX Germany) or restructured (Film Ferrania; ADOX Switzerland) factories and new products. In the last years ADOX has introduced new products in every year.
- The demand for photo chemistry is increasing. Chemistry manufacturers like Tetenal, SPUR and ADOX have introduced new products therefore.
- The photo labs see increasing demand (by the way, "The Darkroom" lab in the US is currently installing new processing machines to increase their volume because of strong increasing demand; they have meanwhile 150,000 (!) subcsribers on instagram, mostly young photographers). Fotoimpex lab intends to increase their capacity in the mid term, too.
- The number of labs worldwide is increasing again.
- New film and film camera shops - often founded by young film enthusiasts - have opened.
- Several new manufacturers of large format film cameras have started production.
- Several new manufacturers of pinhole cameras have started production.
- New manufacturers for accessoires (e.g. for camera scanning) and instant film backs have started.
- The producers of lab equipment like JOBO, Heiland and Kienzle have increasing demand and are therefore introducing new products.
- Hostert has new orders for their big dip-and-dunk processing machines.
- New high-resolution RA-4 minilab machine from Noritsu.
- First companies have started to produce spare parts for camera repair, like Camera Rescue.
- New color papers by Fujifilm.
- Fujifilm instax is for years the most successful photo product, surpassing the sales volume of digital cameras. Instax instant film is a huge mass market. Fuji assess the user base around 40 million customers worldwide.

The film revival is reality. No one in the film industry is discussing whether there is a film revival or not. The data is very clear. All manufacturers in the industry have their sales data and see the increasing trends. All are discussing and working on strategies on how to further strengthen the film resurgeance.

The denying of the film revival is only done by people with no knowledge about the recent market developments and the industry. People who are kind of "thinking / living in the past". It has to be said so clearly.
Some members here have come to the conclusion that this disconnection to the market reality and general negative or pessimistic attitude of this group is counterproductive to the success of photrio (motivating young film photographers to join here; general mood in the forum). This assessment is certainly right. We have lots of young customers, they are excited about film. And they are also very well aware of the positive market developments, as their friends are using film, and they see the film boom on the social media channels and the online magazins. They know quite well what is currently really happening. And when they come here and see some of the discussions and postings, they shake their head and turn away.

It is absolutely understandable that ten years ago people were worrid about the future of film. Film has had to go through very difficult times. But times have changed significantly.
And we don't do us any favour in having superfluos discussions whether there is a film revival or not. It is there, and it is real. Period.
The focus now has to be how it can be further strengthened. And that is what photrio members can support with their positive activities. Spread positive vibes, spread the word, get other (young) photographers hooked with film and the joys of darkroom printing and slide projection.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

Great post, thank you

 

[Sirius Glass]

As here in this thread there is unfortunately some misinformation again by members without any knowledge about the film industry, therefore just the facts about the current situation:



- Not only Kodak, but all photo film manufacturers have increasing demand for their films. As always, some product types see higher growth rates than others.
- For some film types the demand is even so high that the manufacturers cannot produce enough to fully satisfy the demand. That is the reason why stocks of these film types are so often depleted at the film shops.
- Because of the increasing demand the big players Kodak and Fujifilm have reintroduced films (TMZ, E100, Acros II), and medium sized players like Ilford, Foma and Polaroid also have introduced new products (Ilford Ortho in 135 and 120, new Ilford papers - fibre and RC; Foma Retrobrom, Polaroid i-Type film and new cameras).
- Small players like ADOX and Film Ferrania are investing in new (ADOX Germany) or restructured (Film Ferrania; ADOX Switzerland) factories and new products. In the last years ADOX has introduced new products in every year.
- The demand for photo chemistry is increasing. Chemistry manufacturers like Tetenal, SPUR and ADOX have introduced new products therefore.
- The photo labs see increasing demand (by the way, "The Darkroom" lab in the US is currently installing new processing machines to increase their volume because of strong increasing demand; they have meanwhile 150,000 (!) subcsribers on instagram, mostly young photographers). Fotoimpex lab intends to increase their capacity in the mid term, too.
- The number of labs worldwide is increasing again.
- New film and film camera shops - often founded by young film enthusiasts - have opened.
- Several new manufacturers of large format film cameras have started production.
- Several new manufacturers of pinhole cameras have started production.
- New manufacturers for accessoires (e.g. for camera scanning) and instant film backs have started.
- The producers of lab equipment like JOBO, Heiland and Kienzle have increasing demand and are therefore introducing new products.
- Hostert has new orders for their big dip-and-dunk processing machines.
- New high-resolution RA-4 minilab machine from Noritsu.
- First companies have started to produce spare parts for camera repair, like Camera Rescue.
- New color papers by Fujifilm.
- Fujifilm instax is for years the most successful photo product, surpassing the sales volume of digital cameras. Instax instant film is a huge mass market. Fuji assess the user base around 40 million customers worldwide.

The film revival is reality. No one in the film industry is discussing whether there is a film revival or not. The data is very clear. All manufacturers in the industry have their sales data and see the increasing trends. All are discussing and working on strategies on how to further strengthen the film resurgeance.

The denying of the film revival is only done by people with no knowledge about the recent market developments and the industry. People who are kind of "thinking / living in the past". It has to be said so clearly.
Some members here have come to the conclusion that this disconnection to the market reality and general negative or pessimistic attitude of this group is counterproductive to the success of photrio (motivating young film photographers to join here; general mood in the forum). This assessment is certainly right. We have lots of young customers, they are excited about film. And they are also very well aware of the positive market developments, as their friends are using film, and they see the film boom on the social media channels and the online magazins. They know quite well what is currently really happening. And when they come here and see some of the discussions and postings, they shake their head and turn away.

It is absolutely understandable that ten years ago people were worrid about the future of film. Film has had to go through very difficult times. But times have changed significantly.
And we don't do us any favour in having superfluos discussions whether there is a film revival or not. It is there, and it is real. Period.
The focus now has to be how it can be further strengthened. And that is what photrio members can support with their positive activities. Spread positive vibes, spread the word, get other (young) photographers hooked with film and the joys of darkroom printing and slide projection.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

Wow that will just ruin the day for the film naysayers!

 

[miha]

People who are kind of "thinking / living in the past". It has to be said so clearly.

The irony is that it's mostly people who are living in the past that are choosing film over digital. So choose your words wisely!

 

[cerber0s]

The irony is that it's mostly people who are living in the past that are choosing film over digital. So choose your words wisely!

I think their point was that that's not the case, that there's a new generation that chooses to start with film rather than just sticking with it.

 

[miha]

I think their point was that that's not the case, that there's a new generation that chooses to start with film rather than just sticking with it.

Suggesting the film industry is "thriving" because of the newcomers who have put down their DSLR cameras and are now choosing film instead is not too convincing to me.

 

[cerber0s]

Suggesting the film industry is "thriving" because of the newcomers who have put down their DSLR cameras and are now choosing film instead is not too convincing to me.

I guess it's relative. Compare it to how it looked a decade ago and I'd say thriving is a good word. I do think however that it's too early to tell whether it's sustainable or a bubble.

The prices quoted on used analog cameras in that clip certainly suggest a bubble but I don't know how accurate they are as they seemed around 10 times higher than what I see in the local used market here

 

[foc]

Thank you Team Adox for putting the record straight about the revival of film.

Now can you also put the record straight about the revival of Kodachrome, please?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Thank you Team Adox for putting the record straight about the revival of film.

Now can you also put the record straight about the revival of Kodachrome, please?

Please stop wasting Team Adox's time and everyone else's time! Kodachrome will NEVER come back ever! PERIOD! This was documented by PE in APUG/Photrio many times in various threads. The film is very obsolete, too hard to make, too hard to develop, there is no market. Do some research and leave the rest of us alone.

 

[foc]

Please stop wasting Team Adox's time and everyone else's time! Kodachrome will NEVER come back ever! PERIOD! This was documented by PE in APUG/Photrio many times in various threads. The film is very obsolete, too hard to make, too hard to develop, there is no market. Do some research and leave the rest of us alone.

Did you not understand the joke?