Mystery 9x12 from a car boot

Amy Gotto · Sep 1, 2020

Hi Everyone,
New here,

I got a 9x12 at a car boot for £6, but I have literally no idea what it is or what to do with it. I wasn't looking for a plate camera but the guy had a bunch of cameras on the floor (!) and I got 3 other cameras bundled in that take film I can still buy. (£25 for 4 cameras and a lens filter that fit one of them).

There appears to be no brand, the writing on the lens is Oscar Simon Dresden No22250, Profundar Anastigmat, 6.3f 135m. There was no ground glass in the viewing back, and I can't get the back on. Its wooden so maybe it has warped/swollen. No plate holders. I still need to do a full bellows check, but apart from being misfolded they don't seem too bad at all.

Any ideas on brand or plate holder suggestions? Or ideas on how to get it up and running?
Thanks, Amy

Donald Qualls · Sep 1, 2020

The front end looks a bit like a Voigtlander Avus. Your inability to get the ground glass back on may indicate it's not the right mount -- there were roundly a dozen different plate holder mounts, a couple would interchange one direction but not the other. A good picture of the mount rails/surface on the camera back would help a bit.

Oscar Simon appears to have been a lens maker -- there were dozens of them in the days immediately following WWI and into the 1920s. They might well have bought unbranded Voigtlander parts and built their own cameras -- that was also fairly common before 1930.

Amy Gotto · Sep 1, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
The front end looks a bit like a Voigtlander Avus. Your inability to get the ground glass back on may indicate it's not the right mount -- there were roundly a dozen different plate holder mounts, a couple would interchange one direction but not the other. A good picture of the mount rails/surface on the camera back would help a bit.

Oscar Simon appears to have been a lens maker -- there were dozens of them in the days immediately following WWI and into the 1920s. They might well have bought unbranded Voigtlander parts and built their own cameras -- that was also fairly common before 1930.

Thanks for the reply, here are a couple of pics of the back. A bit beaten up.

JPD · Sep 1, 2020

I see no resemblance to a Voigländer Avus. It looks more like a Beier made camera, like this one, also made of wood and has a Profundar lens. Probably an OEM make for a photo store chain. http://www.beier-kamera.de/html/edith_2.html The Profundar lens is likely a triplet.

Donald Qualls · Sep 1, 2020

JPD said:
I see no resemblance to a Voigländer Avus. It looks more like a Beier made camera, like this one, also made of wood and has a Profundar lens. Probably an OEM make for a photo store chain. http://www.beier-kamera.de/html/edith_2.html The Profundar lens is likely a triplet.

Yep, that's a better match. Back appears to be a single slide-in; there's a thread here with most of the plate holder types shown visually. I'm pretty confident that if that ground glass back ever fit this camera, it's lost the rail that would have slid into the camera mount.

Ian Grant · Sep 1, 2020

The Vade Mecum doesn't list that lens, it's quite an early camera.the Vario was introduced in 1912 and the Oscar Simon company disappeared by about 1926. Parts came from various sources so can be common to a few different cameras making identification sometimes difficult

The back needs a new GG screen and slight restoration. If you need help ask

Ian

JPD · Sep 1, 2020

Unmarked OEM cameras can be difficult to identify, because the makers often made changes to a basic camera model of theirs for this. And there were tens of camera manufacturers in Germany in this time period that made similar cameras. This is a lower priced camera, but the triplet lens might be good.

Amy Gotto · Sep 1, 2020

JPD said:
I see no resemblance to a Voigländer Avus. It looks more like a Beier made camera, like this one, also made of wood and has a Profundar lens. Probably an OEM make for a photo store chain. http://www.beier-kamera.de/html/edith_2.html The Profundar lens is likely a triplet.

Interesting, a quick google did reveal some very similar cameras. Good for reference. Thank you.

Donald Qualls said:
Yep, that's a better match. Back appears to be a single slide-in; there's a thread here with most of the plate holder types shown visually. I'm pretty confident that if that ground glass back ever fit this camera, it's lost the rail that would have slid into the camera mount.

Thanks for that link. A single slide in, ok I have something to work with now.

JPD said:
Unmarked OEM cameras can be difficult to identify, because the makers often made changes to a basic camera model of theirs for this. And there were tens of camera manufacturers in Germany in this time period that made similar cameras. This is a lower priced camera, but the triplet lens might be good.

Yes this seems to be a recurring theme to these posts! Hopefully the lens is ok and could be fun to use.

Donald Qualls · Sep 1, 2020

My first plate camera had a triplet, and a couple of my favorite 9x12 negatives came from it. The ones I have now have a Tessar type, and I'm not at all sure it's any better.

Amy Gotto · Sep 1, 2020

Ian Grant said:
The Vade Mecum doesn't list that lens, it's quite an early camera.the Vario was introduced in 1912 and the Oscar Simon company disappeared by about 1926. Parts came from various sources so can be common to a few different cameras making identification sometimes difficult

The back needs a new GG screen and slight restoration. If you need help ask

Ian

Yes it seems it could do with a spruce up. Do you do restorations yourself?

Amy Gotto · Sep 1, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
My first plate camera had a triplet, and a couple of my favorite 9x12 negatives came from it. The ones I have now have a Tessar type, and I'm not at all sure it's any better.

Cameras are just magical things! I always like how film cameras have their own character in some way. Glad to hear the triplet was good. I'll be interested to see what these car boot finds can do.

Ian Grant · Sep 1, 2020

Amy Gotto said:
Yes it seems it could do with a spruce up. Do you do restorations yourself?

Yes, I'll send a PM

Ian

AgX · Sep 1, 2020

JPD said:
It looks more like a Beier made camera, like this one, also made of wood and has a Profundar lens. Probably an OEM make for a photo store chain. http://www.beier-kamera.de/html/edith_2.html The Profundar lens is likely a triplet.

A store or even a chain had no interest in having an unmarked camera. Thus it should have got either the original brand or the haus-brand/name of the retailer.

Or are unmarked cameras from this era known?

Donald Qualls · Sep 1, 2020

Store brand markings were often cheaply applied -- just paint over the black lacquer or embossing in the leather. Or else an affixed tag that's likely to have vanished in the past century.

JPD · Sep 1, 2020

AgX said:
A store or even a chain had no interest in having an unmarked camera. Thus it should have got either the original brand or the haus-brand/name of the retailer.

Or are unmarked cameras from this era known?

I have seen many unmarked cameras. It's cheaper to just put a sticker on the box the cameras were sold in than to emboss or engrave the cameras.

Ian Grant · Sep 1, 2020

AgX said:
A store or even a chain had no interest in having an unmarked camera. Thus it should have got either the original brand or the haus-brand/name of the retailer.

Or are unmarked cameras from this era known?

Not here in the UK, it's very common to have a store/chain name and model marking, So my Dallmeyer Press Reflex is actually a Houghton's Ensign Reflex, the lens a Dallmeyer Press lens, sold separately the f3.5 lens had a different name.

I have quite a few unmarked cameras, talking many that was the nnorm.

Ian

AgX · Sep 1, 2020

Amy, as your camera came out of a boot, let's just call it Boots...

JPD · Sep 2, 2020

AgX said:
Amy, as your camera came out of a boot, let's just call it Boots...

It needs a more profound name because of the Profundar lens: Stiefel & Söhne. A company Founded by real Pros with their feet on the ground. They clicked their heels and went to work.

Ian Grant · Sep 2, 2020

AgX said:
Amy, as your camera came out of a boot, let's just call it Boots...

Ironically Boots had quite a good photographic side, they sold wood and brass cameras made specially for them as well as other cameras carrying their name, only ceasing in the late 1990's or early 2000's by then only simpler entry level cameras carried their name.

Ian

Tom Kershaw · Sep 2, 2020

Ian Grant said:
Ironically Boots had quite a good photographic side, they sold wood and brass cameras made specially for them as well as other cameras carrying their name, only ceasing in the late 1990's or early 2000's by then only simpler entry level cameras carried their name.

Do you know whether there is a history of Boot's cameras online anywhere?

AgX · Sep 2, 2020

Ian Grant said:
Ironically Boots had quite a good photographic side, they sold wood and brass cameras made specially for them as well as other cameras carrying their name, only ceasing in the late 1990's or early 2000's by then only simpler entry level cameras carried their name.

That was what my pun was about... seemingly no one got it.

Ian Grant · Sep 2, 2020

Oscar Simon advertised his lenses in British Journal Photographic Almanacs, the adress is Optical Works, Dresden 21 (established 1876). A company L Trapp & Co 8-9 Chiswell Street London EC are wholesalers established 1865 and specialising in importing and exporting photographic goods. They were distributing Oscar Simon portrait lenses in 1910 and may well have place the advert.

Ian

Ian Grant · Sep 2, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
Do you know whether there is a history of Boot's cameras online anywhere?

I don't think so. Some years ago I went to the Boots site in Nottingham for a meeting for work, their headquarters, factories and warehouses are like a small town. One building was dedicated to their photographic side. (That was around 2001/2).

Ian

Tom Kershaw · Sep 2, 2020

Ian Grant said:
I don't think so. Some years ago I went to the Boots site in Nottingham for a meeting for work, their headquarters, factories and warehouses are like a small town. One building was dedicated to their photographic side. (That was around 2001/2).

Ian

This is interesting as I had tended to just associate Boots with those packets of prints and 35mm colour negatives cut into strips of 4, alongside selling a small selection of black & white supplies.

JPD · Sep 2, 2020

AgX said:
That was what my pun was about... seemingly no one got it.

I knew where you were going with it, but the Profundar deserved a profound joke as well.

Mystery 9x12 from a car boot

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