My prints look so good in the wash, and then they dry.

gone · Jul 19, 2021

I love how my prints look in the fixer or wash water. I'm currently using glossy RC papers until I get to the FB ones, and when the RC's are wet they are just beautiful. Not necessarily my prints, the look of any print that's exposed properly really shines when it has a film of water on it. Is there any way on earth to get a similar look when they dry? There probably isn't, but thought I'd ask. All I can think of is maybe coat it w/ some sort of clear, or put it behind glass, which I don't want to do because of the reflections.

Robert Maxey · Jul 19, 2021

momus said:
I love how my prints look in the fixer or wash water. I'm currently using glossy RC papers until I get to the FB ones, and when the RC's are wet they are just beautiful. Not necessarily my prints, the look of any print that's exposed properly really shines when it has a film of water on it. Is there any way on earth to get a similar look when they dry? There probably isn't, but thought I'd ask. All I can think of is maybe coat it w/ some sort of clear, or put it behind glass, which I don't want to do because of the reflections.

Have you considered using non-RC paper and a ferrotyping tin? Takes effort and you must be proper in your fixing habits. That is, fresh fixer, no exhaustion. Also, we used a product called Pakosol (SP?) to help ferrotype. Other than that, maybe there is a spray coating?

I loved Cibachrome because of their supremely glossy surface. Had to handle with care, however. And the super glossy look wears thin. Well, at least to me.

I swear on my kittens, I took a look for how to make photo prints glossy, and here was the first link:

"Open Photoshop and select "File" and then "Open." Browse for the picture you want to make glossy and open it in Photoshop ..." LOL Whats up with that? Does the entire world revolve around PS?

Good luck, Bob

koraks · Jul 19, 2021

Robert Maxey said:
a ferrotyping tin

That's going to send the poor guy down a rabbit hole from which no return is possible
For some reason ferrotyping used to be doable in the past, but I've never come across anyone who reliably does it (at any size over 5x7") today. I know I tried many times, with many changes to the approach. With and without release agent, several formulas of release agent, several ferrotyping surfaces, temperatures, drying times, etc etc etc. The best I ever got was mediocre results up to 5x7". And a lot of paper fused to glass as if they had become the same material, lol!

Pieter12 · Jul 19, 2021

momus said:
I love how my prints look in the fixer or wash water. I'm currently using glossy RC papers until I get to the FB ones, and when the RC's are wet they are just beautiful. Not necessarily my prints, the look of any print that's exposed properly really shines when it has a film of water on it. Is there any way on earth to get a similar look when they dry? There probably isn't, but thought I'd ask. All I can think of is maybe coat it w/ some sort of clear, or put it behind glass, which I don't want to do because of the reflections.

Print more with contrast, deeper blacks.

Robert Maxey · Jul 19, 2021

koraks said:
That's going to send the poor guy down a rabbit hole from which no return is possible
For some reason ferrotyping used to be doable in the past, but I've never come across anyone who reliably does it (at any size over 5x7") today. I know I tried many times, with many changes to the approach. With and without release agent, several formulas of release agent, several ferrotyping surfaces, temperatures, drying times, etc etc etc. The best I ever got was mediocre results up to 5x7". And a lot of paper fused to glass as if they had become the same material, lol!

LOL ... It is simply how I worked for a long time. Pull prints from the Pako drum washer (with baby bottle rubber nipples in the holes to keep things separated) prints in the Pakosol and on the ferrotype dryer. One reason people have issues is a) dirty Tins or b) improper fixing/washing.

At least I did not mention the Japan Tins or Eastman steam print flattener. Yup, I used steam power in the darkroom. Gave me absolutely flat prints

Bob.

Anon Ymous · Jul 19, 2021

You're experiencing the drydown effect. The print looks different once dry and it's more pronounced when the paper is matte. Assess test strips when they're dry and adjust contrast and density as required.

Sirius Glass · Jul 19, 2021

Anon Ymous said:
You're experiencing the drydown effect. The print looks different once dry and it's more pronounced when the paper is matte. Assess test strips when they're dry and adjust contrast and density as required.

Ansel Adams use a microwave to quickly dry prints so that he could be the look he wanted after dry down. We all have to go through that learning curve.

NB23 · Jul 19, 2021

Drydown effect, even with rc.

pentaxuser · Jul 19, 2021

So far in everything I have read, it always mentions the dry-down factor with FB paper but I have never seen what if any the range of dry-down factors might be with RC? Can anyone point me to a reference for this info or say what they have established their dry-down % factor to be for different RC papers and surfaces?

Thanks

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jul 19, 2021

Technically, it isn't dry-down, because that actually refers to a phenomena that only happens with FB papers, and relates to how their substrate behaves when drying.
But both RC and FB papers do look different when dry - the blacks don't appear as deep as wet and shiny, and the highlights don't shine as much.
I use a hair dryer to dry my test strips, and then base my final printing decisions on the result.
If you display the prints using directional light, much of the appearance of a wet print returns.

faberryman · Jul 19, 2021

Robert Maxey said:
LOL ... It is simply how I worked for a long time. Pull prints from the Pako drum washer (with baby bottle rubber nipples in the holes to keep things separated) prints in the Pakosol and on the ferrotype dryer. One reason people have issues is a) dirty Tins or b) improper fixing/washing.

Back in the day, I used one of those drum ferrotype things in a communal setting. I washed the canvas hold down and polished the drum, and used some special solution - Pakosol I think - and never got anything but splotches on my prints. I gave up. Air dried glossy looks great. Of course fiber based paper never drys flat. For that you need a dry mount press. One of my better purchases.

Don_ih · Jul 19, 2021

You can try a poured water-based urethane on the print or some two-part resin (both of these can be crystal clear). That might do what you want. RC paper can't be properly heat mounted, though. Well, maybe there's something - I don't know about it. You could try fb paper, dry mounted (you can use an iron to do that, if you try hard enough), then pour finish on it. Personally, I think it would be tacky. But I prefer matte prints.

NB23 · Jul 19, 2021

pentaxuser said:
So far in everything I have read, it always mentions the dry-down factor with FB paper but I have never seen what if any the range of dry-down factors might be with RC? Can anyone point me to a reference for this info or say what they have established their dry-down % factor to be for different RC papers and surfaces?

Thanks

pentaxuser

well, that’s what I thought too. But all my Ilford RC Pearl 10x10 sheets (500 of them) have had the drydown effect, as incredible as it may sound.

I’m right in the middle of a printing marathon consisting of winter scenes. I leave the prints to dry with white snow and the next day it’s gray snow.

john_s · Jul 19, 2021

NB23 said:
well, that’s what I thought too. But all my Ilford RC Pearl 10x10 sheets (500 of them) have had the drydown effect, as incredible as it may sound.

I’m right in the middle of a printing marathon consisting of winter scenes. I leave the prints to dry with white snow and the next day it’s gray snow.

Maybe try Tim Rudman's "Sparkle Bath" which is simply a dilute ferri bleach when the print is fully processed. If you can't find a post I'll look up the instructions I received when I did one of his courses years ago.

EDIT: I found a copy of something I posted a few years ago:

A précis of some docs I've downloaded and books I've read for adding a bit of sparkle or counteracting inadequate drydown allowance:

Farmer‘s reducer R-4a, which is made up as follows:
Solution A: Potassium Ferricyanide 75g in 1 Litre water (i.e. 7.5% soln.)
Solution B: Sodium Thiosulphate 240g in 1 litre water
100ml A + 100ml B + 1 Litre or 1½ Litre water.

Swiftly slide in dry print. Agitate rapidly 10 – 15 seconds. This is old advice and it is said that modern papers require more dilute treatment and that is my experience with Ilford Multigrade. (This for dull slightly dark prints that have been a bit overexposed under the enlarger, i.e. inadequate drydown allowance. I think I used the reducer about half that strength.)

Also it is said that warm tone papers require much less also. I have used it with Ilford Multigrade Warmtone (which I found to be barely warmtone in ID-78) and maybe it did need a bit less, I can't really remember. What is important is not to leave it too long: be ready to put it in fresh running water fast. You can always put it back for a bit more. Remember that drydown effect still happens at this stage. Also good washing afterwards is essential (thiosulphate).

Also, Very Weak reducer will tend to affect deeper tones as well, so don't try to use it very weak in order to make the timing less critical. (This is disputed by some.)

Fraunhofer · Jul 19, 2021

koraks said:
That's going to send the poor guy down a rabbit hole from which no return is possible
For some reason ferrotyping used to be doable in the past, but I've never come across anyone who reliably does it (at any size over 5x7") today. I know I tried many times, with many changes to the approach. With and without release agent, several formulas of release agent, several ferrotyping surfaces, temperatures, drying times, etc etc etc. The best I ever got was mediocre results up to 5x7". And a lot of paper fused to glass as if they had become the same material, lol!

I could not agree more. I have tried many possible permutations of paper, substrates (glass, chrome, lexan), glycerin, lots of pressure, no pressure, under water, hot water, print driers, etc ... to no avail. I get nice gloss but always with a few flaws. I would assume that indeed the emulsions have changed to a point where this no longer works.

Vaughn · Jul 19, 2021

momus said:
I love how my prints look in the fixer or wash water. ...

Alas, the wet print syndrome. Some good advice above. My advice would be to print for the dry-print by learning to judge the wet print based on how it will change at it dries. Don't get sucked into making the wet print look as best as possible.

You might find that the 'wet-look' might work best with glossy RC and the right subjects...such as dew drops on chrome.

I find there are two types of dry-down. That caused by the shrinkage of the emulsion and paper (greater w/ FB), and that which is caused by turning on the viewing light to look at the print, and making a snap judgement before one's eyes/brain have adapted to the new level of light. This can cause one to err in the direction of a darker print.

Sirius Glass · Jul 19, 2021

Robert Maxey said:
Have you considered using non-RC paper and a ferrotyping tin? Takes effort and you must be proper in your fixing habits. That is, fresh fixer, no exhaustion.
...
Good luck, Bob

koraks said:
That's going to send the poor guy down a rabbit hole from which no return is possible
For some reason ferrotyping used to be doable in the past, but I've never come across anyone who reliably does it (at any size over 5x7") today. I know I tried many times, with many changes to the approach. With and without release agent, several formulas of release agent, several ferrotyping surfaces, temperatures, drying times, etc etc etc. The best I ever got was mediocre results up to 5x7". And a lot of paper fused to glass as if they had become the same material, lol!

I started out using ferrotyping, then I realized that if I wanted to have prints I could use I needed to hang them to dry or use a screen for drying.

NB23 · Jul 19, 2021

Thanks a lot!

I tried bleaching and it did’t work out. It took much too long to bleach. All my prints are toned, and I believe the toning may protect the print from bleaching properly...

I will try again soon, with your measures.

Thanks!

john_s said:
Maybe try Tim Rudman's "Sparkle Bath" which is simply a dilute ferri bleach when the print is fully processed. If you can't find a post I'll look up the instructions I received when I did one of his courses years ago.

EDIT: I found a copy of something I posted a few years ago:

A précis of some docs I've downloaded and books I've read for adding a bit of sparkle or counteracting inadequate drydown allowance:

Farmer‘s reducer R-4a, which is made up as follows:
Solution A: Potassium Ferricyanide 75g in 1 Litre water (i.e. 7.5% soln.)
Solution B: Sodium Thiosulphate 240g in 1 litre water
100ml A + 100ml B + 1 Litre or 1½ Litre water.

Swiftly slide in dry print. Agitate rapidly 10 – 15 seconds. This is old advice and it is said that modern papers require more dilute treatment and that is my experience with Ilford Multigrade. (This for dull slightly dark prints that have been a bit overexposed under the enlarger, i.e. inadequate drydown allowance. I think I used the reducer about half that strength.)

Also it is said that warm tone papers require much less also. I have used it with Ilford Multigrade Warmtone (which I found to be barely warmtone in ID-78) and maybe it did need a bit less, I can't really remember. What is important is not to leave it too long: be ready to put it in fresh running water fast. You can always put it back for a bit more. Remember that drydown effect still happens at this stage. Also good washing afterwards is essential (thiosulphate).

Also, Very Weak reducer will tend to affect deeper tones as well, so don't try to use it very weak in order to make the timing less critical. (This is disputed by some.)

faberryman · Jul 19, 2021

For a while I made two prints, one with the exposure that looked right when wet, and one with 10% less exposure. When they dried, the one that had 10% less exposure usually looked better. Eventually, I learned the effect of dry down.

tomkatf · Jul 19, 2021

faberryman said:
Back in the day, I used one of those drum ferrotype things in a communal setting. I washed the canvas hold down and polished the drum, and used some special solution - Pakosol I think - and never got anything but splotches on my prints. I gave up. Air dried glossy looks great. Of course fiber based paper never drys flat. For that you need a dry mount press. One of my better purchases.

I used to ferrotype my prints in a similar situation but discovered the trick to perfectly glossy prints was to stop the drum until the prints separated themselves from the drum... this amounted to "cooking" the prints for a few minutes with the drum stopped. I can imagine that this wasn't beneficial to the prints longevity but I still have these prints and they've shown no signs of any ill effects so far... at ~50 years and counting... I was using FB 11x14" Portriga Rapid 111...

cliveh · Jul 19, 2021

No one has explained what dry down means. So let me explain that prints are slightly darker when dry compared to when wet. You have to factor that in when printing.

MattKing · Jul 19, 2021

cliveh said:
No one has explained what dry down means. So let me explain that prints are slightly darker when dry compared to when wet. You have to factor that in when printing.

That is a good description of dry down with FB prints.
This is different than what you see with all prints, both RC and FB: when wet the blacks appear blacker, and the whites appear brighter. As the prints dry, the blacks appear less black, and the whites appear less brilliant.

Bill Burk · Jul 19, 2021

How does the print look matted and framed? Glass can make a print look nice.

Pieter12 · Jul 19, 2021

How bright is the inspection light in your darkroom? That could also be a factor.

pentaxuser · Jul 19, 2021

MattKing said:
Technically, it isn't dry-down, because that actually refers to a phenomena that only happens with FB papers, and relates to how their substrate behaves when drying.
But both RC and FB papers do look different when dry - the blacks don't appear as deep as wet and shiny, and the highlights don't shine as much.
I use a hair dryer to dry my test strips, and then base my final printing decisions on the result.
If you display the prints using directional light, much of the appearance of a wet print returns.

So what % changes have you found you meed to make, Matt with RC?

Thanks

pentaxuser

My prints look so good in the wash, and then they dry.

gone

Robert Maxey

koraks

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Pieter12

Robert Maxey

Anon Ymous

Sirius Glass

NB23

pentaxuser

MattKing

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faberryman

Don_ih

NB23

john_s

Fraunhofer

Vaughn

Sirius Glass

NB23

faberryman

tomkatf

cliveh

MattKing

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Bill Burk

Pieter12

pentaxuser

My prints look so good in the wash, and then they dry.

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